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What is the source of faith?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Feb 13, 2003.

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  1. William C

    William C New Member

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    Thank you for your reply. It proves my point that we all contain some measure of faith. Some define it as "dead faith" or mere knowledge of ones existance, as opposed to "saving faith" which is the means by which grace is applied. But where does scripture draw any distinction between the faith of the demons or the faith of those in Romans 1:21 and the faith that is properly applied to Christ. There is no difference except the object of that faith is not only on a knowledge of his existance but upon his Words. And if ones faith is truely in Christ then it will show itself to be gracious as that one is sancified through the Holy Spirit indwelling.

    In summary, let me ask another question. If man has the capasity to have faith in God existance, why do Calvinist assume he does not have the capsity to also have faith in his Word? If one can believe that He is who He says He is, can't he also by that same measure of faith believe His teachings to true once they have been revealed to him through the power of the gospel?

    Thanks,
    Bill
     
    #21 William C, Feb 13, 2003
  2. William C

    William C New Member

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    The knowledge of God has been naturally implanted in the human mind. It is beyond disute that some awareness of God exists in the human mind by natual instinct, since God himself has given everyone some idea of him so that no one can plead ignorance. He frequently renews and sometimes increases this awaresness so that ALL MEN, knowing that there is a God and that he is their maker, may be convicted in their own conscience when they do not worship him or give their lives to his service.

    What do you Calvinists say to this argument!
     
    #22 William C, Feb 13, 2003
  3. sturgman

    sturgman New Member

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    I thought scripture teaches us that we should be "known by God" to be counted among the saved.
     
    #23 sturgman, Feb 13, 2003
  4. William C

    William C New Member

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    We should. Our being "known by God," as in an intimate relationship with Him, cannot happen without reconcilation which comes by grace through faith. Right now I'm talking about faith, the means by which we are reconciled. Make sense?

    In Christ,
    Bill
     
    #24 William C, Feb 13, 2003
  5. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

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    Bill,

    The distinction is all over the book of James. It is James who says that ther is a faith which is barren (2:20) and dead (2:17,26). That is not a faith that saves, and hence not a faith that has any relation to that which Paul refers to as a jstifying faith.

    So there are indeed differnet kinds of faith. Your point is unproven, and indeed refuted.

    You are assuming a definition of faith here rather than answering the request to give a definition. That is unfortunate.

    Becuase mere intellectual assent is not jusifyng faith, not biblcial faith. Mental assent is not to the true God (Ro. 1). It just doesn't happen Bill. Scripture says this.

    It is amazing that you split hairs over pronouns but ognore distinctions Scripture actually does make.

    I agree that al people have some knowledge of God. That's Romans 1. But none actually acknowledges God as God. That is also Romans 1. The universal knowledge of God is in creation and is not salvific. it serves, as your quote points out in other terms, to make people beyind excuse. That is what the last snetence means.
     
    #25 Bible-belted, Feb 13, 2003
  6. William C

    William C New Member

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    Could you point out to me the distinction between faith in God's existance and "saving faith," besides the outward results. We both agree that faith in Christ results in salvation and sancification, so the outward results are not the issue. What is the distinction between these two:

    1. Faith as believing that one merely exists as seen in the demons of James 2 and the men in Romans 1.

    and

    2. Faith as believing in God's Word (or saving faith, as we see throughout scripture)

    The only distinction I see is object of the faith. The first is faith in God's existance but not in his Truths. The second is faith in both which is revealed to the world in Christ.

    Therefore men now have the opprotunity to place their faith not only in God's existance the the truth which now has been made know through the power of the gospel.

    Faith is Faith, it seems to me. The problem is the application of that faith. Is it merely in the knowledge of God's existance? Or is it in Christ and the power of his resurrection. Please explain how you see that faith is not really faith merely because its not correctly applied. I'm still not following your reasoning.
     
    #26 William C, Feb 13, 2003
  7. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

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    YOu mean besides the fact that one justifies and the other does not?

    And why besides the outward results? They are key you know to the way James and Paul understand faith. Particulalrly so in James where he actually differentiate between dead faith and faith that justifies, saying that faith that justifies is shown by works. A faith that is mere mental assent will not show obedience and hence does not jsutify.

    Paul refers to things about God, His invisible qualities. To know of God's existence is to know one of His truths. Paul also argues thatGod is known through His creation, which implioes that they can know that He is the Creator; but they turned to idolatry and rejected this truth of God. They did nt glorify God as God.

    There is not a different object of faith, since there is no way to maintain the dichotomy you propose. (You seem to major on false dichotomies.) Part of Paul's argument in the first few chapters of Romans is that Jes are as accountable as Gentiles and even more so becuase they know more. That means that the gentiles are judged on their reaction to the truth they have. They don't derive a benefit from ignorance. They are not less accountable. They are accountable for less. They are as without excuse as the jews are.

    This denies the distinctions made by James entirely.

    Your problem is that Scroipture does distincguish between types of faith. You need to deal with the passages that teach that distinction. your effort to ignore it is unsuccessful.
     
    #27 Bible-belted, Feb 13, 2003
  8. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

    dia pisteos iesou xristou (by the faith of the Son of God, the genitive of possession or source.

    Not faith "in" Christ as the new translations read. So yes, it is the faith of the Son of God.
     
    #28 Primitive Baptist, Feb 13, 2003
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    What specifically is your claim here? Are you saying that without Jesus, man would not have faith?

    What is it you mean by faith? Don't give me scriptures I have and read daily several bibles. Tell me in your own words just exactly what faith is.
     
    #29 Yelsew, Feb 13, 2003
  10. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    The Arminian asks, "What is the source of faith?", then answers, "The will."

    The Calvinist asks, "Who is the source of faith?", then answers, "God."
     
    #30 Rev. G, Feb 13, 2003
  11. William C

    William C New Member

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    You obviously didn't read my first post. I believe that faith is a gift of God's grace. All good things come from God. You need to read the arguments before you start trying to refute them.

    With Respect,
    Bill
     
    #31 William C, Feb 13, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Bro. Bill,

    I did read your first post. Correct me if I am wrong, (to summarize what you have said); Faith comes from God; all men have faith (ref. Rom. 1); salvation is by Grace, but not until our faith activates it. Thus all men have a kind of general faith, but until this faith is actively applied to Christ as its object, salvation is not granted by Grace from God? Is this correct?

    You are not denying that God and in essence, Christ is the originator of faith, but you are saying that man possesses faith and must place that faith in Christ to make the Grace of God unto salvation effective, correct?

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #32 Frogman, Feb 14, 2003
  13. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    You forgot to mention that all of the above is somehow proven by the presence of the word "OUR", even though -- for some mysterious reason -- the "OUR" in "OUR SALVATION" doesn't lead one to the same conclusions about salvation as it did faith.
     
    #33 npetreley, Feb 14, 2003
  14. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Frogman and npetreley, If you knew anything at all about the human, you'd know that virtually every human has faith. For many their faith is placed in money, for others in land, for others in government, for yet others in their own abilities, and for still others, other people.

    There are those whose faith is in money who have no faith in banks, those that have faith in land, they have no faith in the season, and take up irrigation. For those who have faith in government, they only trust Government while their party is in power. for those whose trust is in their own abilities, they have no one but themselves to blame. So far I haven't mentioned those who place their faith in deity. My point is this all mankind has faith in something no matter what or whom it may be.

    Man has the capacity for faith whether or not it is the right kind of faith or faith in the right thing. To deny that fact is to be ignorant of the way that God man mankind.

    To focus on Religious faith. One should never deny man's capacity to have faith, and never say that man can only have faith when God puts it there, for God truly has put the capacity for faith in all mankind. That is the reason there is "a call" to come to God, He knows us and knows that we can believe in Him and In his Son Jesus. He wants us have faith in him, using the same capacity for faith that he made us with.

    In the same manner, all mankind has the capacity to love, to have mercy, to have grace, Justice, and free will too. The capacity for all of these exists in mankind, because God made us in his image. And YES, mankind does in fact have the capacity and ability to use these things in the manner that God instructs us to use them. He would not have instructed us to use them thusly if we could not.

    The truth that everyone has these attributes is evident in the fact that we all have "personalities" and that our personalities are shaped by the dominance of these attributes within us. Call them fruits of the spirit if you wish, because one is easily recognized by the dominant attributes the person has. So even the most vile person has "fruit of the spirit, and one can determine what the other's spirit is by the fruit on display.

    Not one of these attributes carries with it the authority or the power by which man can save himself from condemnation, and in fact most are damned by that which they believe in. For salvation in this age of Grace (age of the gentiles) man must place his religious faith in Jesus for there is no other name under heaven whereby we may be saved, even "the elect" if they exist.
     
    #34 Yelsew, Feb 14, 2003
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Yelsew,

    I agree with this statement:

    Consider this statement next time you formulate an argument in support of 'human free-will' or that man has an ability to choose God.

    Bro. Dallas

    [ February 14, 2003, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
    #35 Frogman, Feb 14, 2003
  16. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    Rev. G said:

    Rufus believes Rev.G is correct. Amen [​IMG]

    Rufus [​IMG]
     
    #36 rufus, Feb 14, 2003
  17. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    You are revealing your ignorance! And that is OK! You have the right to exercise your free will in that manner.
     
    #37 Yelsew, Feb 14, 2003
  18. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I submit to you and to any who care to read, that what is right is filtered through the depraved will of man.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #38 Frogman, Feb 14, 2003
  19. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    Yelsew said:

    Friend, ignorance abounds! lol

    rufus [​IMG]
     
    #39 rufus, Feb 14, 2003
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