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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Jul 22, 2014.
What state are they in?
Spiritually dead in adam, or what?
Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So while the Lord knew us as becoming His own, as he was dtermining that we would be found in Christ, until we actually received jesus thru faith, we were still walking in darkness, lost and away from God, correct?
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast .
But God who is rich in mercy!... It is not about our works but about the works of God through his Son Christ Jesus and without his work on the cross!... We would still be DEAD! How DEAD? Oh I forgot you don't believe in Total Depravity do you?
I hold to the sotierology as expressed in the doctrines of Grace, if that will help...
What was that?... Sorry you will have to explain that word Sotierology? :tonofbricks:
the system/way/method by which God has chosen to save sinners unto Himself...
Yet another unbiblical assertion from Calvinism. The idea expressed in the OP is that foreseen individuals without foreseen faith were chosen for salvation unconditionally before creation. Thus a person would be elect before conception.
Now all you careful bible students, flip open your study bibles, which would be word for word translation philosophy versions, and look at Romans 8:33.
Now each and every Calvinist on this board will bring the charge of not being justified against every supposedly elect person before they put their faith in Christ. All of them deny Romans 8:33.
Once again, Calvinism has been demonstrated to be unbiblical.
Now if God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, then they would have not been chosen individually before they came to faith. This view is therefore consistent with all scripture. Once again, scripture precludes the election of Ephesians 1:4 being individual and requires it to be corporate.
When does God justify them van? before while lost in teir sins, or after being saved by grace of God?
So are you saying if I'm not reading you wrong Van that election is by choice?
Believe his take is that we first chose to accept jesus and get saved, THEN God elects us into the Body!
Our faith in jesus causes us to now become the elect, not that election causes us to become saved...
The Elect who have yet to be converted are in a state of sin and rebellion against God. Their standing before God does not change until they are regenerated.
Wow, imagine that, an election involving choice. Whoever heard of such a thing??
Hi Tyndale1946, I am not saying anything, I am reporting what God is saying. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.
God is saying, Romans 8:33 that no one can bring a charge against the Elect. Romans 8:33 precludes being individually elected, yet not justified.
Calvinism says God chose foreseen individuals before creation, God says God chooses existing individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.
Romans 8:33 precludes separating our election and our justification, but Calvinism claims you can have elect individuals who have not been justified.
It is Calvinism that denies what God says.
Final point, we do not choose to elect ourselves, it is God who chooses us, after crediting our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5. Salvation does not depend, repeat, does not depend, on the man that wills to be saved, but upon God. Romans 9:16.
Tyndale1946, pay absolutely no attention to anything any Calvinist says about my views, they misrepresent my views to create strawman arguments. Note the absence of any quote.
2 Thessalonians 2:13, not Van, says we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. Do not be misled by the founts of disinformation.
Before regeneration we were lost. Just like everybody else.
You left out that pesky little word "sanctification"......:thumbsup:
So if not part of his flock as sheep, were we outside as goats?