What is the truth?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Alex Mullins, May 20, 2002.

  1. Alex Mullins

    Alex Mullins
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    It is difficult to believe that so many are unable to see the truth regarding God's Word.

    It is true, the believer's sole objective should be to spread the gospel and win the lost.

    It is true, that God's Word should be the basis for all we believe.

    It is true, this precious Word which was ONCE delivered to the Saints has been protected and preserved from the time Holy men put it to paper.

    It is true that, we should not waste time arguing about this topic. It should never divide us nor become a test of fellowship. To "love one another" was not a request!

    It is true, this debate has nothing to do with one's savation. The Word has no saving power in and of itself. Praise Gos He continues His work IN SPITE of all the revisions and corrections man has made to His Word.

    It is true that God Intended for us to have His perfectly, preserved Word from the very beginning. Why would He want us to have anything else?

    It is true that we have today over 150 "versions" of God's Word, a new one coming off the presses every six months, each one easier to read than the previous. The latest is a gender-neutral edition of the NIV.

    We need to investigate the differences and assure ourselves that there really are significant differences. There are thousands of differences. Among the most significant (when compared to the NIV are:

    Luke 9: 56
    Matthew 11:26 If it's too difficult, just remove it!
    Matthew 18:11 (Missing in the NIV)
    Matthew 9:13
    Matthew 5:44 How do we deal with our enemies?
    1 Cor 5:7
    John 6: 47
    Luke 2: 33
    Mark 3:15
    Mark 11: 26
    1 Cor 10:28
    John 16:16 - Where did Jesus go?

    There are thousands more changes, where the name of Jesus Christ has been down-graded to "He", or "The One" or simply "Jesus" (Mexico is full of men named Jesus) The name Jesus Christ is very special.

    We need to ask ourselves "Where are all these "versions" of God's word coming from and investigate that.

    Why would Satan decide to just leave it alone.

    God is not the author of confusion but even a lowly lumber salesman like myself can comprehend and understan who is!

    What better way to get in and weaken, water-down and pervert this precious word.

    That's my position and I still love all who disagree - even though you are still fully entitled to your wrong opinion on this very important topic.

    God Bless

    Alex
     
  2. TomVols

    TomVols
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    Alex,
    You do realize that the same charges can be and were leveled against the KJV? Changing the accepted version, why another version, why is it different from Geneva or Bishops, etc. I do share your disdain for the TNIV because it's not a translation based on a translational philoshophy as much as it is driven by a political agenda, IMHO.
     
  3. Chris Temple

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    I know this isn't the theology board, but this statement is not true - Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him for ever. The spreading of the gospel is one means by which we do this :D
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    What are you basing this on? There have always been generations without the Word of God. Witness the era of Josiah when they found the Law that had been hidden for years. Furthermore, there is no way to substantiate the argument that God wnated us to have his perfectly preserved word. This is a matter that Scripture does not speak to.
     
  5. Alex Mullins

    Alex Mullins
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    Tom:

    Yes I understand that man has been trying to eliminate the truth of God's word since the time it was inspired unto Holy men, but never as much as during the last 50 years. The printing press has certainly gone a long way to contribute to the perversion of the gospel. Perhaps that's why God didn't want it around earlier.

    I have never been able to get a satisfactory answer to the three questions:

    1. Why would God want us to have anything but His perfect, inspired, inerrant, infallible word and to know without a shadow of doubt that we do have it? That would be in keeping with his nature, right?

    2. Why would Satan not do everything in his power to get into it and change it, weaken it, pervert it and cause believers to argue over it? That would be in keeping with his nature, would it not?

    3. How does my belief in this most trustworthy of God's Words have any bearing on what you believe? For me it is important to know the truth, not having to guess if I have it or where it is!

    I am not a bible school graduate, nor do I believe that the God who breathed me into existence would expect all believers to have a complete and thorough knowledge of Greek and Hebrew to know that He has preserved His word, every jot and every tittle exactly where He intended it to be.

    It is, therefore, not difficult for me to believe that this word, we have called it the KJV since 1611, was protected and preserved by men who were "born of the spirit" throughout the ages. From the Textus Receptus to the Vulgate (Not Latin), to the Wycliffe(1380), the Tyndale(1525), the Coverdale (1535), the Matthews (1537), The great(1539)the Geneva (1560) the Bishops (1568), the KJV (1611) and the two or three subsequent revisions to the KJV 1611, where the language was updated without destroying the basic message and doctrines, God's word has been preserved and I praise Him for it.

    I also believe that mankind will need to defend and protect that precious word to the very end. Perhaps it is time for yet another updating because of the 50-60 words that have become too difficult to understand by today's bible scholars.

    In the meantime, it is not my objective to divide, or make enemies of those who disagree. That would make satan the winner. I just want to love everyone and lead them into the belief that we do have ONE WORD OF GOD, NOT 150-200 flawed versions, having to guess which one it is.

    I thank Him for this medium called the Internet for allowing myself, and all others who wish to express their opinion on this most important topic,to such a wide audience.

    If you believe what I believe, you know what this is all about, you can express it without
    name-calling and personal attacks, I encourage and plead with you to do so defend this precious word until He returns to explain things in the clearest of terms.

    Thousands have been wrong, in fact the majority have been wrong when it comes to issues relative to God's truth. Man's ways have always been the easiest to believe for some reason. HMMM.... must be something about our nature!

    It will be most excellent to stand before Him someday and ask "Why?" But I think the Holy Spirit will lead you to the real truth, and there is only one truth, are we in agreement on that.

    In Christian love.

    AV Alex (lowly, uneducated lumber salesman)
     
  6. Alex Mullins

    Alex Mullins
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    Pastor Larry:

    Psalms 12: 6-7 is clear enough for me. I know "bible scholars" and Pastors have been taught that these verses meann something else but I don't buy it. To me they mean what they say and that is "preserved".

    I agree also with that it is our purpose to glorify Him but we do that by telling others about Him and letting Him do the rest.

    It will not serve His purposes by arguing about this, until about 1943 there was very little argument on this topic but then something happened. Man changed and became more illiterate than he had been for aver 300 years. All of a sudden God's word became unclear and difficult to understand so man set about to rewrite it, not merely correct a few words here and there but to twist it into a more comfortable edition of "God's Word".

    I think it is all a part of the big plan. The end is getting near, many are falling into the trap, narrow is the way and few are they who will find it.

    Pastor, I thank you for your input, though and I still love you in the Lord.

    AV Alex
     
  7. Ernie Brazee

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    It wasn't illeteracy that brought on the MVs but mans depraved nature. The looking glass of God's Word had to be dulled to made natural(unsaved) man look better!

    Ernie
     
  8. DocCas

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    Alex, the 12th Psalm is a very beautiful picture of the wonderful grace of God.

    It, as with most Psalms, is divided into strophes. In the first strophe we see the supplication for the godly man, who is said to be "ceasing." The faithful "fail" or are dying out from among the children of men.

    In the 4th strophe, verses 7 and 8, we see a consolation, a hope expressed based on the statement of God which was expressed in the 3rd strophe, verses 5 and 6. In verse 7, the suffix "em" in Hebrew refers to the poor in verse 5, and the suffix "ennu" refers back to the man in verse 1 who yearns for the deliverence mentioned in verse 5.

    The "preserving for ever" of God is so constant that never will the man of grace ever succumb to the evils of the generation in which he lives.

    Alex, I have great respect for you, but in this case I cannot help but believe you have an incomplete understanding of the 12th Psalm. It is about grace and the preserving by God of those who are recipients of His grace, not about the bible. [​IMG]
     
  9. Alex Mullins

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    Ernie:

    Amen, brother. Well said. Would there be any other defenders of the Word out there?

    I think it is absolutely miraculous how God continues to work, in spite of the way men have mutilated His precious word?

    Thanks and God Bless.

    Alex
     
  10. DocCas

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    Alex, you will find no stronger defender of the KJV than I, but I defend the KJV with facts, not with hyperbole. [​IMG]
     
  11. tyndale1946

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    Until recently the KJV was the only version of scripture allowed in a Baptist Church. I have my Grandfathers KJV Bible circa 1941 complete with the preface to King James... My Dads Bible KJV and mine this is left out. Can someone post statistics when the KJV became the lesser in our pulpits and homes?...btw this is for Alex and Ernie... Primitive Baptist have never allowed any other in their pulpit... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  12. TomVols

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    Absolutely. I humbly am, as is Pastor Larry, Chris Temple, Tyndale, Dr. Bob, and many others on here. To be a defender of KJVO is not the same as being a defender of the Word of God, and vice versa.
     
  13. Bartholomew

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    Hi Alex! Thanks a lot - I'm with you all the way! Your Bible is perfect - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. ;) Many people come up with scary arguments, but they hold no water. Keep up the fight!

    Your friend and brother,

    Bartholomew

    [ May 20, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Bartholomew ]
     
  14. Alex Mullins

    Alex Mullins
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    Thomas:

    It is true, I do not have a good understanding of the hidden meanings to be found in these verses. All I know is what they say...to me.

    I do know that man has developed a new language all centering around the term "textual criticism" and I am uncertain as to where that term originated. I hear it often from those who tell me I am wrong and when my interpretation of scripture lacks understanding. I pray continually for a better understanding of God's word and the desire to hide it in my heart.

    It seems to me also that, just as in the early days (perhaps even today)in the church of Rome, the common people looked to the Priests, Bishops and church leaders to interpret scripture for them
    we have the "educated" today to tell us what God really meant when He was saying something and i suppose, that is a good thing in some cases.

    Thomas, I too respect you and all ministers of the gospel. That is a tough job you have. You don't need this. My own Son is "educated" and a Baptist Pastor just returned to Canada from a six year Pastorate in New Jersey. As a Bible scholar, he too knows much more about the deeper hidden meanings of scripture and we discuss this quite often. We are connected at the DNA level and best of all, still good friends, in spite of our differences.

    I have conducted a laymen's study of Psalms and I have determined that Psalm 12 falls in the category of "Lament Psalms". There are many of this type. They carry a plea for deliverance or defense and they are addressed directly to God. (Just like I do daily)

    The overriding theme of the Psalm, however, is based on the pure words of the Lord and how they can be used by the oppressed to acheive victory to overcome wickedness.

    So, I understand that this was a plea against the wicked of that time and encouragement for oppressed believers. It seems, in many ways, it was not much different then than it is in 2002.

    The word "words" referred to the pure and reliable word of the Lord, "preserve" meant the same as it does today and the word "generation" has also held it's meaning. It seems there where wicked people and oppressed downtrodden people. These are not word which require interpretation even to my untrained head and heart.

    The conditions described here apply as much, now, as they did in the days of David and these words of comfort are needed as much, or more, in light of the apostacy and wickedness, immorality in high places we see today.

    This Psalm should bring comfort, encouragement and blessing to men and women today.....just to know that God's words are pure words, preserved from generation to generation.

    We can be thankful and full of praise in the knowledge that we do have His pure preserved word, perhaps not the verbal, audible word, but we have it in written form and Psalm 12 is, to me, one of the assurances of that truth.

    The preserved KJV has survived a lot of turmoil as satan has tried his best to eliminate it, just like the Nation Israel (another topic for another day) but we have this great promise that it will stand the test, from generation to generation.

    Isn't that absolutely fantastic?

    God Bless

    Alex

    God Bless
     
  15. Ernie Brazee

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    Pastor Larry,

    Yes, God is speaking of the promise to man that his word is true, that is the point. Just as he promised to preserve godly men, he promised to preserve his wordand he did! Not just the KJV, but in many languages. Someone please explain to this poor dumb country boy why it was neccessary for God to take a bunch of ungodly men to "improve" on what is already perfect?

    Ernie
     
  16. DocCas

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    Alex, there is only one problem with your understanding of Psalm 12. That is not what it says! You just assume the antecedent of "them" in verse 7 is the "words" of verse 6, but, even though the English grammar would allow such an understanding, it does not demand it, but, the Hebrew grammar not only will not allow such an understanding, it absolutely forbids "them" refering to "words." God does not make grammatical errors. If you ignore the argument from grammar in Psalm 12, you must also ignore the argument from grammer in 1John 5:7-8, which is the strongest historical argument in favor of including the Johnnine comma. We can't have it both ways! What is good for the goose is good for the gander! If arguing from grammar is wrong, it is wrong in both places. If it is right, it is right in both places.
     
  17. Alex Mullins

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    Tyndale:

    It is my belief and understanding that the KJV began it's decline in the late 1940' and excalated into the 50's and 60's. It's decline was proportionate to the moral decay of society and apostacy that invades our fundamental evangelical churches to this day.

    I know several churches that are well aware of the problem and are still very solidly KJV because they see it as the truth.

    It seems however that the growing churches are the ones with the watered down, easier-to-read generic bibles. The dress code has gone down the tubes. Sunday School, in Canada, is almost a thing of the past losing grount to "Small Groups" and home bible studies where everybody can translate scripture for themselves.

    We are seeing a departure from scripture on several fronts as more and more women ar being ordained.

    Also, as in many other things, children will not have the benefit of the pure KJV because their parents abandoned it many years ago.

    I understand the Southern Baptists have been conducting a "street" survey for the past 5- - 60 years. In 1946, when asked the question "Are you a practicing, born-again Christian? 45% of American said "Yes". In 1999, asked the same question, only 4% responded positively.

    So this would indicate that, even if you are in a growing church, as I am, you are not winning the battle.

    It's all part of the big plan and it's time to get serious about a number of issues, the inerrancy of scripture among them.

    God Bless

    AV Alex
     
  18. HankD

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    I agree with you about this but its the Hebrew which has never changed and never will. If the Lord tarries the English language will pass from the scene.

    HankD

    [ May 20, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  19. TomVols

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    Alex,
    You wrote:
    This is dangerous, man-centered, subjective interpretation my friend. This is not the way to understand Scripture. The question to ask a passage of Scripture is not "What does this mean to me?" but instead is "What does this passage mean?" The subjectivist "This is what this means to me..." gives rise to a multitude of liberal leanings and heretical hangups. I don't think that's your intent. Let the Word speak for itself. When you interpret Scripture faithfully, then you can unearth the riches of God's gloroious Word [​IMG]

    [ May 20, 2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: TomVols ]
     
  20. Chris Temple

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    So, by analogy, the KJV is the product of perfect, sinless nature, meaning either the AV translators did not possess sin natures, or the AV was immediately breathed-out by God?? :rolleyes:
     

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