what is wrong holding to jesus died for all, but God only gives faith to some?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, Sep 23, 2013.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    that His death was sufficient to have savd all sinners, but only avaials thsoe who receive Him thru faith?

    For unless a sinner receives Him, his death would not be reconciling them back to God correct/ Socannot say that he died for all iin an effectual/actualsense?
     
  2. JonC

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    I don’t think that any disagree with the statement that the Atonement was sufficient to have saved all sinners. The difference may be in its purpose and/or object.
     
  3. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    See the Calvinist doctrine of "limited atonement."
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

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    What does your theology tell you?

    1. The FATHER has chosen the Elect.“You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16; see John 17:2, 6, 9; Galatians 1:15).

    2. Jesus confirms this teaching: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out” (John 6:37)

    Note: The Father has chosen his sheep. They are his. And he gives them to the Son. That is why they come. No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father” (John 6:65).
     
  5. JonC

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    I see. Depends on the "Calvinist" I guess. Most that I've heard believe that the Atonement, while limited to the elect, was more than sufficient for all. But then again, many don't believe it was available to all..
     
  6. webdog

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    The problem is not with the atonement, it is with the 'giving faith to some'. That logically implies he withholds faith from the rest...while commanding them to have it. How you guys do not get this bipolar view is beyond me. One has to put their brain on a shelf to believe this nebulous 'gift of faith to the select few' doctrine.
     
  7. Crabtownboy

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    What if the Father choose everyone?
     
  8. salzer mtn

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    webdog do you believe ? Is your faith in a sovereign Lord that rules and reigns over all the works of his hands, salvation to the soul included ? or is your faith in a puppet that can only move when man pulls his strings, a jesus that tried and failed, a jesus that wanted to but couldn't, a jesus that is wringing his hands, walking the floors of heaven with a worried look saying why want they believe on me ? webdog my faith is not in this make believe jesus that modern religions of today believe in.
     
  9. salzer mtn

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    Then everyone would be saved.
     
  10. webdog

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    :laugh:

    Thanks for proving my point. So if one doesn't believe in the bipolar Jesus...they default to your caricature instead.
     
    #10 webdog, Sep 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2013
  11. salzer mtn

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    A person is either on one side of the fence or the other, no straddling the fence. It is either black and white, no gray in between. Jesus said, you are either for me or against me.
     
  12. webdog

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    There is no fence between two equally faulty views, or if there is...one needs to find a new field where at least one view is correct.

    Who here sits on the fence between....

    A. A Jesus who withholds faith from the many...while in love (or hate, take your pick) wags his finger at them to repent and to turn to him in faith....

    or

    B. A Jesus who is a "...puppet that can only move when man pulls his strings, a jesus that tried and failed, a jesus that wanted to but couldn't, a jesus that is wringing his hands, walking the floors of heaven with a worried look saying why want they believe on me ?"

    Stand up and take a side, as Mr. Mtn. says it must be one or the other.
     
    #12 webdog, Sep 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2013
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Then everyone is saved. Nobody goes to hell.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    So It is Election you have a problem with. Dont you think God has the right to do whatever He wants to do? When Paul was preaching on Mars Hill, the crowd loved his sermons on Election, but they had a problem with the Resurrection. I find that kinda ironic. But today the clear teachings of the doctrines of Election are met with scorn & name calling.
     
  15. webdog

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    I have no problem with election. I have a problem with the DoG linear and illogical understanding of election which logically paints God as a bipolar deity.
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Seriously, what the heck are you talking about?
     
  17. saturneptune

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    Exactly correct. There is nothing more destructive to the work of the Lord than a lukewarm Christian or local church. I would rather deal with someone who proclaims they are not a believer in either God and/or Christ. When I say lukewarm, I do not mean on the basis of how many rules one follows under their own power. I mean is Christ the center of their life. How one acts flows out of Christ. When one looks closer, what are they doing to serve the Lord?

    There are certain terms that do not exist like lukewarm Christian.
     
  18. webdog

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    Its quite simple to understand.
     
  19. DHK

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    He is talking about the plain commands of Scripture given by a holy and righteous God, given to all men, not just the elect. Then, according to the Calvinist, God is the ugly monster for he gives these commands to all, but all are not able to keep them.

    For example:
    "But now in these times God commands ALL men everywhere to repent."
    He does not command "all the elect." He commands all men everywhere to repent.
    He is the monster that commands (according to the Calvinist) those that have no ability to repent, to do just that--repent. Thus Webdog's accusation of a bipolar God or theological thinking.

    Man must have the ability to have faith, and that faith does not come from God. There is no Scripture that says faith comes from God, at least that God gives faith to the unsaved--none. You can't do it. You cannot show Scripture that God gives spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved. He doesn't.

    All men have faith. It is innate.
     
  20. salzer mtn

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    In Rom twelve and one the verse starts out with Paul addressing the brethren, I beseech you therefore brethren, and in keeping within the contents in verse three Paul say's, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Notice Paul didn't say according to your ability to produce faith. Paul is pointing out the fact that this faith that every man has that are called brethren, God hath dealt to you or worked in you. In 11 Thess chapter three verse one Paul is again addressing the brethren. Finally brethren pray for us. In verse two Paul said, And that we might be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. Who is the all men that have not faith ? answer, it is the wicked men.
     
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