What led me to preterism....

Another objection of the author is that dispensationalists confound the literal and the allegorical with similar accusations from the dispensationalists against preterists.

Rather, I would say that the difference between scriptural imagery interpretation of full Preterism and futurism (all futurism is not dispensational but all dispensationalism that I know of is futuristic) is not so much a confounding or misplacing/misapplying of Scripture but that of discerning the literal from the imagery.

Secondly, an appeal to OT theology as somehow different than NT theology ignores that fact that the OT writers were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit as well as the NT writers who knows the end from the beginning. There indeed were those things unrevealed in the OT. ‘New” especially in terms of God’s expectation of man is not “different” theology from existing theology in reference to the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

The “New” contains liberty from these restrictions under the “new” leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

e.g. Under the “dispensation” of the Law diet, apparel and many other practices which were heavily regulated are now left to the liberty of the believer.

On many occasions OT “apocalyptic” (apocalupto – to unveil) writings were just that, in reference to the final Apocalypse veiled in the apparent language of the current and local.

Sometimes there was not even the veil as in these passages:

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Isaiah 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

And many others which show that Israel will one day finally and forever be restored and that restoration promise not fulfilled by the Gentiles who believe on the Messiah but Isael herself, such as the entire chapter of Ezekiel 37 which ends with this passage:

Ezekiel 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Jeremiah as well and also makes a distinction in those days between the nations (Goyim) and Israel.

Jeremiah 31
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations (Goyim), and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Zechariah declares that the Lord Himself will deliver Israel from the Gentile nations when His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives from whence He ascended - Acts 1:8-12

Acts 1
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

In fullfilment of :

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


HankD

 

In Hebrews 8-10 the author there clearly applies the new covenant to that which was brought in by Christ.

 

No, you are right. It would not be an effective way. But that is not what is required here. Paul3144 basically anathematized what I believe with his points 1 and 2 and called my views "damnable heresies". I am just calling him to task - publicly, because his comments were public - for his unscriptural and irresponsible harangues.

The "effective standard" that I use and value is, as far as I can see. the same one that you value, the Word of God. This Word not only shows us what to believe but also how to communicate that belief.

Here is an example of audience relevance not being practiced. You see my term "ignorantly" and apparently assume I was reaching for the wide brush, as if I was calling all those who disagree with my position as ignorant. That is not the case at all. Read my post again. I said to Paul3144 - and only to him:
"It is ironic that you have that quote from Wesley in your footer [Clearly one person is being referred to, Paul3144]. Wesley validates, in principle, the things you ignorantly anathematize in your #1 and #2."[Clearly one person is being referred to, Paul3144].

Further explanation: Paul3144 faults Preterists for their spiritual (vs. flesh-and-blood) coming of Christ. The quote from Wesley highlights my view IMO, with the "spiritual man discern[ing] God" according to the evidence of faith.

You write the word "kindly", requiring of me what you yourself have not demonstrated toward me. Writing the word is much easier than demonstrating that particular grace. I assume your choir heard those comments and were suitably impressed. You didn't care that he called me a heretic. For that matter I don't care either, but your being selective on whose motives you choose to chastise doesn't reflect well on you.

Now, are you truly my friend? Then read my posts more carefully, and answer more slowly.

 

Colossians 3:4 And when Christ, who is your life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. When did this take place? Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Again when has this taken place? 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. When did these events take place? Any record that Jesus came from Heaven "a second time" in history for his elect?

 

Tom, I know this is difficult but please continue to try to ignore the personal attacks against you and avoid the strong temptation to retaliate in like kind.

Many of us appreciate your scholarship.

Though I diasgree with full preterism and can even be a little coarse myself, I don't believe in name calling, ad hominems, damnations, etc for what I consider an incorrect eschatology.

Though I have slipped as well on occassion, especially when provoked.

personally, I have a kind of fascination with the varying views of the brethren concerning eschatology.

Let it be known FWIW that I don't consider you a heretic or a teacher of damnable doctrines.

Just a brother with an incorrect eschatology

And as someone has said "this is not a hill to die on".


HankD

 

Thank you, Hank, for all of the above. But please understand that I am not concerned about the personal attacks. I come to expect them from certain quarters. What concerns me is that Preterism itself be cleared always of the charges like those Paul leveled at it.

The reason is that much of what is entailed here is not eschatology, but pure theology. Many of these parts of the Bible I thought before were only eschatology have assumed much greater importance. I don't know how else to say it.

Take care.

 

Speaking of Wesley: http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/137/

 

I never said Wesley was a Preterist, just that his quote had affinity to Preterism.

 

In what way does it have affinity to Preterism?

 

This is getting away from the OP. Also, I don't want to waste my effort on someone who views me as a heretic anyway.

 

Yawn Yawn yawn

Well that just gets a great, big fat yawn.

Given the constant name calling like heretic, antichrist, satan, etc, etc, etc

I can't even get impressed enough to be mad at you Paul. So use to it and so over it.

:sleeping_2:

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

LOL!

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

True of course, but maybe you should have left them in ignorance.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

Are you doubting my sincerity Christian? Do you think I would fib about something so important?

You seem to be accusing me of something. It looks like, and pardon me if I'm misreading you, but it kinda looks like you think I'm not trying my level best to understand your writings. I think you are a fine christian and a fine theologian. I disagree with the preceived attitude that some of your fellow preterests have with respect to those evangelicals and fundamentalists who hold different views and I wish you would step in and use your nice level persona to urge those whom you (all) disagree with to tone it down some. But still, Tom you are awsome to the extreme and I'm really hurt thinking that you think that I don't take you, your feelings and our friendship seriously.

What more can I say?

 

I never called anyone antichrist or Satan.

 

Let's not argue over who killed who, King of Swamp Castle, MP and Holy Grail

In your specific post you left those two out--big deal! I get called all the same old evil names over and over, I don't keep track of who used what. They all just sort of run together you know. Every board has a few who break out in hives at the mere mention of the word Preterist.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

It comes down to this for me. Jesus said that before they had went through the entirety of the cities of Israel, He would return. Did He lie?

 

Tom,

I should have written my previous post more carefully. I do see that and do remember that your posts have been of a better quality of etiquette. But you did seem to gloss over my being called heretic. My earlier response was to that particular post of Paul's, the one with the three doctrinal points, the first two not even scriptural.

Take care. Have a good day.

 

Hello William,

Yes, there are several verses just like this that we just cannot plow around, to use Jerome's metaphor. If it was only one verse it would be a problem for the view I used to hold (futurism), but there are well over a dozen clear time-related passages like this; passages that assume completion of the events prophesied within the generation.