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What matters is keeping the Commandments of God

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 12, 2010.

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  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?

    Question: Who did Moses give the law to?

    Answer: Jesus said he gave it to "YOU" - thus he not speaking to merely individuals but to the JEWISH NATION.

    Question: How many of the Jewish nation kept the law?

    Answer "NONE OF YOU"

    However, this does not change the fact that the law was given to them to keep

    However, this does not change the fact that the law reveals the righteousness of God

    However, this does not change the fact that whoever does keep it will obtain eternal life

    Both the Lawyer and the Rich Young Ruler came to Jesus on the basis of obtaining eternal life by Law keeping and Jesus simply said DO IT and you will obtain eternal life. Neither the Lawyer or the Rich Young Ruler believed in Christ nor did Christ say "believe in me and you will have eternal life." They came by way of law keeping and Jesus merely pointed them to what the law demanded to obtain etenal life.

    In Romans 2:6-15 the self-righteous gentile (vv. 1-5) come to God by way of law keeping and the self-righteous Jew comes to God by way of lawkeeping (vv. 17-25) and Paul merely points out what the law demands for eternal life and what it penalizes for failure "ACCORDING TO" their OWN WORKS - neither came by way of faith in Christ.
     
    #81 Dr. Walter, Dec 21, 2010
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #82 BobRyan, Dec 21, 2010
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Nothing "imaginary" about that idea because as Paul points out IN Romans 2 it is done as a work of the Holy Spirit working on the heart and it is as Paul states in Heb 8 a work of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant writing the Law of God on the heart!


    And big shocker - Romans 2 contains references to BOTH the lost and the saved!

    Here is the section on the saved.

    It is the same emphasis on good trees producing good fruit that we see in Matt 7 and the same perseverance of the saints seen in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

    No wonder Paul can say in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

    And "yes" in that context Paul is speaking to the saved saints - so no need to "circle back to the POV of the lost" as a knee jerk reaction to reading that text.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #83 BobRyan, Dec 21, 2010
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In John 7 Jesus speaks to a group of Jews that are rejecting him. I.e. lost Jews

    But in other places we find in structions to the saints --

    But of course there will be some who when confronted with these texts regarding the perseverance of the saints - will respond that the lost do not do what we see the saints doing in these texts above AND that the lost cannot simply "be good" as a way to "be saved". Their view of the condition of the lost is excellent.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #84 BobRyan, Dec 21, 2010
  5. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    OK to the series below but this can't mean that no single Jew in the previous 2000 years kept the Law. It refers to the people alive when Jesus spoke.
    --------------------
    John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?

    Question: Who did Moses give the law to?

    Answer: Jesus said he gave it to "YOU" - thus he not speaking to merely individuals but to the JEWISH NATION.

    Question: How many of the Jewish nation kept the law?

    Answer "NONE OF YOU"

    However, this does not change the fact that the law was given to them to keep

    However, this does not change the fact that the law reveals the righteousness of God

    However, this does not change the fact that whoever does keep it will obtain eternal life
     
    #85 billwald, Dec 21, 2010
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE:

    This is just what is too hard for Bob Ryan to admit --- because he obviously does see it --- that there just, ARE, NO, "succeeding cases" of freedom of will or bondage of the law, or vice versa, bondage of will or free from the law. One is either in Christ elected and saved, or not elected in Christ and saved.
     
    #86 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Dec 21, 2010
  7. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You are missing the point - "NO FLESH" can be justified by the works of the Law because NO FLESH can keep the law.

    When God gave them the law at Mount Sinai his first response to their committment to keep the Law was:

    De 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

    Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

    So you see NONE of them were capable in the day of Moses to keep it either, including Moses and Aaron as they were forbidden entrance into the promise land because they broke God's commandments.

    There is "NO FLESH" that can be justified by the law because "NO FLESH" lost or saved that can keep it.

    Therefore JUSTIFICATION does not come by law keeping but by faith in Christ and "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH" - Gal. 3:12a


     
    #87 Dr. Walter, Dec 21, 2010
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 8:7 Paul says that the wicked mind is hostile toward God and does not keep the Law of God.

    In 1Cor 7:19 Paul is applying the obligation regarding the Law of God to saved saints when he says "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God".



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #88 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2010
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is a good statemetn from the POV of the lost person.

    As Rom 8:7 the lost person's mind is hostile toward God and is not able to keep His Law.

    But in 1Cor 7:19 the message to the saved saints is "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

    In 1John 2 and in Romans 6 the NT authors tell us that if someone is claiming that they must sin - then they are claiming that they are not saved. Whether they are right about such claims - only God knows.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #89 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2010
  10. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    #90 Dr. Walter, Dec 22, 2010
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #91 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2010
  12. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    #92 Dr. Walter, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #93 BobRyan, Dec 24, 2010
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 3 Paul addresses the point that all are lost and in need of a Savior. But in both chatpers 1 and 2 he has contrasted the lost with the saved. Chapter 3 simply points out that even though we do have those wonderful contrasts between the lost and the saved in the prior chapters - it does not mean that the saved were always saved - or that they never needed salvation due to status, or birth or whatever.

    He has not make that Rom 3:9 argument in Romans 1 or in Romans 2 - yet he has no problem contrasting the saved to the lost in Romans 1 and in Romans 2.


    Not so. I never argue that the succeeding cases of chapter 1 or of Chatper 2 - did not go from being lost to being saved.

    In Romans 2 we have the context of the Gospel - in vs 4 it is a Gosel call to repentance in vs 16 it is the future Gospel judgment.

    And in Romans 1 (forming the context for chapter 2) we have "The righteous shall live by faith".

    And we see them not only "living by faith" in Romans 2 but also "persevering in doing good". (3 and 5 point Calvinists call that "perseverance of the saints" and so do many of us Arminians).

    We see the same thing in Rev 14:6-7,12.


    Paul argues that some of the Gentiles are demonstrating the Heb 8 New Covenant result of the "Law written on the heart" which is why Paul ends the chapter with a contrast between GENTILES that DO keep the Law of God compared to Jews that DO NOT - and then points out that the difference is the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #94 BobRyan, Dec 24, 2010
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here we find the saints of Romans 1 who "live by faith" also "persevering in doing good" in Chatper 2.

    Next we see that Paul is not arguing that all gentiles are accepting the Gospel and so are saved any more than that all Jews are rejecting the gospel.

    But just as he takes special cases for the Jews "IF you bear the name Jew AND rely upon the law AND boast.." vs 17

    So also Paul speaks to the special case of gentiles whose hearts are transformed by the Holy Spirit.

    There is no way to invent a rule about "IF - means fictional" because not only would that make the born-again Gentile a thing of "fiction" in Romans 2- it would also make Jews a thing of "fiction" in vs 17. But in Romans 2 Paul argues that these are REAL Jews that are causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the Gentiles - not fictional ones.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #95 BobRyan, Dec 24, 2010
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    James and Paul refer to the same "Future justification" principle. It only applies to saved saints. you are circling back to the concept of Justification for the lost -- and to the fact that the lost are not justified by works. Justification past changes the status from lost to saved.

    Justification future that Paul mentions in Romans 2:13-16 and that James speaks about in James 2- does not change the status from lost to saved.

    It is simply the Matt 7 review of the tree. Whether that tree be good or evil. Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #96 BobRyan, Dec 24, 2010
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    #97 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Dec 25, 2010
  18. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    #98 Dr. Walter, Dec 25, 2010
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is no such animal as "future justification." In that you are deceived. The Bible teaches no such thing. A man is justified but once in his life. A simple definition of justification is "just as if I never sinned," or the principle that God declares the person just before him because by putting faith in his shed blood he has by the grace of God been declared righteous by God. This happens but once in a person's life, and that is on the day he is saved. It cannot be repeated.

    Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)
     
    #99 DHK, Dec 25, 2010
  20. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    #100 Dr. Walter, Dec 25, 2010
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