What the New Testament REALLY says about the Sabbath

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Apr 2, 2003.

  1. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
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    Ok, let's do this right. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

    I'd like to point out the discoveries that I have made concerning the Council’s decision in Jerusalem.

    Acts 15

    19. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

    Note that this is specifically for the Gentile believers.

    20. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    Idolatry. Mention of the 2nd Commandment. Fornication. Mention of the 7th Commandment, and various other NT commandments. Things strangled and blood. Mention of the Dietary laws given to Moses. So there is a parallel to the 10 Commandments, the Law of Moses, and the Laws given by Christ and the Apostles. All 3 constitute the Commandments of God.

    21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.

    NOW, strangely enough, MOSES was preached to the GENTILES every SABBATH to the GENTILES. hmmm

    22. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

    They were to go to the churches and TELL THEM the things that the Counsel decided.

    We all know that at the end of this chapter we see a split between Barnabas and Paul, and they do not go on together.

    Paul and Silas took it upon themselves to do the work of spreading this word. Where did they go?

    They went to many cities, but the ones that I would like to focus on, are the cities that we have epistles written to.

    Acts 16:12. And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
    13. And on the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

    Notice that the place where they went, in Philippi was to the riverside where they KNEW the people would be praying ON the Sabbath. And WHAT did he say to them?

    There is an account of their encounter with a woman named Lydia. She was down on the riverside ON the Sabbath, praying. She was baptized. Was she a Jew? In verse 21 we see their encounter with the master of the possessed girl, and he claimed that they were Romans. NOT Jews. This was in the same city.

    Also we see in chapter 17 that they traveled on to Thessalonica, and went into a Jewish Synagogue on the Sabbath and reasoned with them for 3 Sabbaths from the Scriptures. In verse 4 we see that there were many Greeks saved during this time. On the 3 Sabbaths.

    In chapter 18 we see them going on to Corinth where they met with Jews and Greeks, on the Sabbath.

    So we have the focal point being the people (Romans) in Philippi, and the Greeks in Thessalonica, and the Greeks again in Corinth.

    NOW, wouldn't it stand to reason that if the Sabbath was an issue that Paul felt needed attention, that he would have mentioned it in one of the epistles written to those churches?

    What do we see about the Sabbath in Philippians?

    Nothing.

    Thessalonians?

    Nothing.

    Corinthians?

    Nothing.

    It is also noteworthy that the Thessalonians and the Corinthians received 2 epistles each from Paul, and not even ONCE did he say anything to them about their Sabbath observance.

    NOT A WORD.

    NOW, who DID he say something to about the Sabbath?

    Those at Colossi.

    Let's see WHY.

    Colossians 2:13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:
    17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Many have tried to argue that the word there in the original Greek for 'Sabbath' is NOT referring to the weekly Sabbath, but to the yearly Sabbaths. I am not going to take that route. I have a different spin on this passage, and it means allot to me personally.

    I am a Sabbath keeper. I honor God once a week by ceasing from my labor, as He did from His. I do not work, nor allow any in my house to work. We do not engage in any form of worldly activities, and by worldly I do not mean sinful, I mean worldly, such as shopping, ball games, amusements. We focus on God, and His creation, including family and friends. It is a weekly celebration of the Creation of God. We go to the beach, or to a park, or for a hike, or we just rest. (depending on the weather).

    There are people who are Sabbath haters. They HATE the Sabbath. They hate that I think we should keep the Sabbath. They hate that I can show them from Scripture that Sabbath keeping is still valid for the Church. THEY HATE IT! In their hate they judge my keeping of the Sabbath. They judge me, saying things like 'you are not living in the law of liberty' and 'If you live by the law you will die by the law' and 'you are failing the grace of God'. They judge me in my respect of the Sabbath.

    Isn't that what Paul said? Did he say 'do not let anyone judge you for NOT keeping the Sabbath'? OR did he say 'Do not let anyone judge you in RESPECT of the Sabbath'?

    Let's break it down.

    "Let no man therefore judge you [in meat, or in drink, or] in respect [of an holyday, or of the new moon, or] of the Sabbath days:"

    So with the additional elements removed, what did he say?

    "Let no man therefore judge you in respect of the Sabbath Days"

    This is not a loophole for disobedience. This is NOT Paul throwing the Sabbath out the window. This is Paul telling the members of the Church WORLDWIDE, and FOREVER that we should NOT allow people to judge us in what we eat or drink, (like me being shunned for being vegan, believe it or not I am actually persecuted by family members for this choice), and that we keep the Holidays and feasts of the New Moon, and the Sabbath.

    Paul in the first part of this chapter commended us to "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ". This is a solemn warning. Why would Paul say THAT and then tell us just a few verses later that we can disobey God? Seriously. Why would he do that? And AGAIN he points out the seriousness of this problem that we see more and more today, in verse 22 "after the commandments and doctrines of men?". What is he talking about? Is he telling them to disobey GOD? NO! He is telling them that they are FREE from the judgmental attitudes of the leaders of the Jewish community and those led by them that were judging the manner in which they observed the Holy Days, New Moon feasts and Sabbath Days. He was NOT telling them to STOP keeping them. He was telling them to not let THOSE PEOPLE judge them FOR keeping them, and HOW they kept them.

    Jesus set a standard on the Sabbath day, while He was on the earth. He brought it back to the Sabbath of Eden. The Sabbath that existed BEFORE the Law came. The Sabbath of Rest, and freedom. The Jews had SO many regulations, I think I read once somewhere that the Jews would actually tie a string to their door that was as long as a 'Sabbath Days journey' and that was as far as they could go! Jesus released mankind from the ordinances. The commandments of men.

    Not the Commandments of God.

    And finally, the MAIN reason I believe that the Sabbath HAS NOT been fulfilled is that Paul SAID it was not.

    If JESUS is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, then Paul is a liar, and we should throw out everything He wrote.

    He said this:

    Col 2:17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    A Shadow of THINGS TO COME.

    What ever the Sabbath foreshadows, whether it be the heavenly rest, or the Millennium, or whatever, at THAT moment when Paul wrote that Epistle, it was STILL future tense.

    Also, I think it noteworthy to point out that the Holy Days, and New Moons and Sabbaths will be celebrated even in the New Heaven and New Earth.

    Isaiah 66: 22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

    It only stands to reason that if the Shadow of the Sabbath, has not come, that the Shadow should continue.

    AND it stands even stronger that if the Shadow is something that will continue for ALL eternity, that it should ABSOLUTELY be continued!

    God Bless
     
  2. AITB

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    3AM, are you sitting down, because I'm going to agree with something you wrote... :eek: (I think I am, anyway [​IMG] )

    I agree that Paul's point in Colossians was not to say that all Sabbath observance is wrong. I was just discussing something similar to this a week or two ago on another board. Paul's point, I believe, is that salvation is not found in Sabbath observance.

    Some years ago I asked my Jewish-Christian (brought up Orthodox Jewish, now a believer in Christ his Messiah) leader about Jewish Christians who keep the Mosaic law. I thought he'd say it was wrong but he said that Jewish Christians vary on whether they believe they ought to keep it or not. They don't keep it because they believe salvation comes through it. They keep it because they believe it brings them closer to God, which is what the Jewish teachers always said about it, I think, going back to when it was first given. And I can see how saying blessings after you do even routine things, for example (I know those aren't in the Bible but anyway...) can be a way to keep your thoughts on God all day long.

    Anyway so his explanation was helpful.

    And I understand Paul in Colossians as encouraging the Colossian believers to keep their focus in the right place - on Christ. The problem was not that they were observing certain things but that they were thinking their salvation lay in their observance of them.

    I suppose I'd consider the Sabbath a Romans 14 issue therefore; one over which we ought not cause our brothers and sisters to stumble and one over which we ought not condemn each other.

    That may mean my position is different from yours - but I do agree with you that Paul's point in Col 2:17 was not to ban Sabbath observance [​IMG]

    Helen/AITB
     
  3. BobRyan

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    I suppose I'd consider the Sabbath a Romans 14 issue therefore; one over which we ought not cause our brothers and sisters to stumble and one over which we ought not condemn each other.

    Your position is one of the best to take when countering a pro-Sabbath approach. So, although it is a challenge - we begin.

    In Romans 14 the "strong vs weak" contrast is first setup with diet. (meat offerred to idols most likely since the Jews had no restrictions that mandated vegetarianism). The "strong in faith" is listed first as the one who eats meat AND vegetables, (eating meat offerred to idols knowing that the idols is merely stone) and is contrasted to the "weak in faith" mentioned Second - as those who only eat vegetables (trying to avoid eating meats offerred to idols).

    Even so - in the case of the Observance of Holy days - the FIRST is the one who "OBserves One day Above another" and the SECOND is the one who "OBserves Every Holy Day -"

    In fact, Paul is talking about the annual feast days and claiming that some pick ONE of them Above another - while Others choose to Observe them all.

    There was in fact no debates among first century Christians about refraining from work and "Observing" 365 days a year

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    (1) The fact that Paul went to "reason with the Jews on the Sabbath" and that he traveled around by riversides talking to Jewish women who prayed there PROVES that the Christian worship assembly was not on the Sabbath! Heb 10:25, presumably written by Paul, says we are not to forsake assembling together, which is exactly what Paul would have been doing if he was going to go preach to Jews at the same time that the Christian assembly was going on.

    (2) That Paul preached to Jews on the Sabbath merely shows that he understood it was the best time to preach to Jews and that he was telling the truth when he said "unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews" (1 Cor 9:20)

    (3) Sabbath keeping is NOT wrong and Sabbath keeping is also NOT binding; therefore, binding Sabbath keeping is wrong and forbidding Sabbath keeping is wrong.

    (4) In Col 2:16 "Let no one judge you regarding sabbaths" means "do not let them judge you for keeping it NOR for not keeping it." This passage is synonymous with Romans 14:5 "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."
     
  5. 3AngelsMom

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    Sola,

    The people that Paul was meeting with by the Riverside were not Jews. They were Romans. Also, you said something about them not being 'at church'. WELL, if they were Jews, they would have been at the Synagogue but since they were NOT Jews, but were Romans, they were NOT in the synagogue, but were gathered together down by a Riverside, on the Sabbath.
    Your logic was that if Paul was down on the Riverside with the 'Jews' on the Sabbath, that the Sabbath COULD NOT have been the day of worship for Christians because he THEN would have been 'missing' the assembly. (which is really strange logic, based on the fact that he WAS assembled with believers) WELL, if the woman that Paul met there, Lydia, was a Jew WHY was she at the Riverside and NOT in the Synagogue?

    ALSO, WHY does it say, 'as his manner was' in regards to Paul going into the synagugue on the Sabbath in Acts 17, when he was on his THIRD Mission trip? WHY was it still 'his manner' to go into the Synagogue on the Sabbath, if it was done away with? Did they forget to tell Paul?

    The people with whom he met in Thessalonica, and Corinth were both Greek and Jew. The addition of believers to the church that is mentioned is that of Greeks!

    It is VERY noteworthy that the people with whom he met in Antioch in Acts 13 were Jews, but the people who compelled him to return were Gentiles! And WHEN did he return, by THEIR request, which he DID NOT argue with, but complied with?

    42. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
    44. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Then there is also the account of the people in Thessalonica, that Paul preached to them for 3 Sabbaths in a row and the account says:

    Acts 17:4. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

    And AGAIN, at this PERFECT opportunity for Paul to tell the people of the supposed 'change' in the day of worship, said NOTHING about the day they were gathering on. There is ALSO no mention of the Sabbath vs Sunday issue in either of the 2 Epistles to the Thessalonians. Why do you think that is?

    He also spent some time with the people of Corinth where he reasoned with them from the Scriptures every Sabbath for the duration of his visit, and the account says:

    Acts 18:4. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    And AGAIN, Paul does NOT tell them that there has been any change! He also says NOTHING in his 2 Epistles to the Corinthians! Don't you think that is strange? If there was a change don't you think he would have let them know?

    AND again, the Collosians 2 verses are the ONLY mention that Paul makes of saying anything ABOUT the Sabbath. When was Collosians written?

    According to this site it was written from prison sometime during 61 AD. This Epistle is one of the last of the Pastoral Epistles, Ephesians being written also in 61 AD and Phillipians being in 62 AD. There were also 4 personal Epistles written after Collosians being Philemon in 61 AD, 1 Timothy in 62 AD, Titus in 63 AD, and 2 Timothy in 64 AD.

    All of which, 12 total, have NO mention of the Sabbath. No mention of any change, no mention of any recommendation to keep Sunday. NOTHING.

    Your interpretation of Collosians 2 is AGAINST the whole of scripture. I am not singling you out because there are MANY who share your view. The problem with the view is that people are taking Pauls advice and using it as an occasion to sin. Peter warned that the writings of Paul could sometimes be hard to understand and that using them to support a doctrine that is not in line with the rest of the Bible is dangerous to the extent of destruction. (2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his [Paul] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.) It is noteworthy also that Peter said 'speaking of these things', and the things that he was speaking of were living Godly, and in obedience to God.

    And Paul also states for our benefit that when we go about our lives living in the Grace that God has made a way for, that we do not take advantage of that Grace!
    Galtians 5:13. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
    And in the verses following, he commends us to WALK in the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Those LUSTS are (as we all know): Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. AND Paul goes on to say that it is SO impacting that those who CONTINUE in these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. That's pretty serious don't you think?

    Kinda throws 'do whatcha want, you're under grace' out the window huh?

    AGAIN, there is an OBVIOUS connection between the COMMAND given by the First Angel in Revelation 14:7 "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." And the VERY Sabbath Commandment: "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

    ALSO, it is noteworthy that there is COMPLETE continuity in the Scriptures, not only in the OT, but ALSO in the NT in SUPPORT of keeping the Sabbath.

    There are Greeks, Gentiles, and Jews, as well as the Apostles seen keeping the Sabbath, throughout Acts (which is the 'historical' book of the NT). There is no mention in the NT of any change in days. There is no mention in the NT of people keeping Sunday as a day of worship or rest. The Apostles broke bread DAILY, so calling up verses that have 'first day' in them does NOT hold water in comparison to the MOUNTIAN of evidence that I just wrote.

    You think that Pauls advice to not allow people to judge you in your RESPECT of the Sabbath as saying that you shouldn't allow people to tell you that you SHOULD be keeping it, so I am not going to tell you that you should. [​IMG]

    I think the Bible speaks louder than I ever could.

    Be led by the Spirit and you will NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh.

    God Bless
     
  6. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
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    Sorry this took so long to reply, but I was in the hospital last night because I had a heart attack when I read this! (sorry)
    Ahhhh an honest non Sabbatarian.

    How refreshing.

    God Bless
     
  7. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Romans who converted to Judaism or were in the process of doing so.

    There is a difference between going to the place where an established church meets and worshipping with them and going and preached to Jews and converting them - yes, they were believers when converted, but when Paul first met them they were not. I hope you are not implying that Lydia was a Christian before Paul met her; if you didn't but notice, he preached the gospel to her and the Lord opened her heart to heed what he said and then he baptized her -- she was not a Christian when Paul met her! (Acts 16:13-15) She was obviously also not a Pagan seeing as how she worshipped God.

    Paul believed that the gospel is "to the Jew first" (Rom 1:16, Rom 2:10) thus, he went into the synagogues on the Sabbath and preached "to the Jew first."

    Why were these Gentiles in the synagogue to begin with??? They were either proselytes to Judaism or in the process of becoming such!
     
  8. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
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    Sola,

    Do you know when Stephen was stoned?

    God Bless
     
  9. 3AngelsMom

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    Well do ya?
     
  10. DHK

    DHK
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    ca. 29 A.D.
     
  11. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    What does that have to do with the sabbath?

    By the way something that I just heard today:

    (Col 2:16 NKJV) "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival (yearly observance) or a new moon (monthly observance) or sabbaths (weekly observance),"

    Paul covers it all here.
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

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    Are you serious? You just heard that today.

    I went into that passage in my first post.

    Where were you?

    God Bless
     
  13. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
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    When Stephen was stoned it marked the END of the time for the Gospel to go to the Jews.

    It began THEN to be taken to the Gentiles.

    Paul, was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

    Please tell me this isn't news to you....

    God Bless
     
  14. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    The part that I put in parenthesis.

    The gospel was still taken to the Jews after that. (Acts 11:19) "Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."

    It's news to me that you've never read Acts 11:19.
     
  15. 3AngelsMom

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    Sola,
    The event that took place immediatly following the stoning of Stephen, was the conversion of Saul.

    He is the Apostle to the Gentiles.

    He may have been preaching to the Jews, (because they would listen) but it was at THAT TIME that for the FIRST TIME the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

    The 70th week Covenant with Israel ended with the stoning of Stephen.

    And, as far as my knowledge of Acts 11, I have read it. Look at WHY they were only talking to Jews.

    Hmmmm

    Look at the context.

    18. When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
    19. Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
    20. And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
    21. And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

    I am fully confident that verse 19's 'word' that was preached was that about the persecution of Stephen and the further persecution that arose because of the stoning of Stephen.

    And furthermore, it says in the very next verse that some of the men were Grecians!

    Carry on.....
     
  16. hrhema

    hrhema
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    3 Angels Mom: There is absolutely no scriptures in the Bible where anyone told anyone to stop following the Sabbath. Nor is there any where where we see it was changed from Saturday to Sunday. This took place again when Rome became the center of Christianity. Just like many Roman doctrines that was put into place so was Sunday worship put in place.

    This is just like the doctrine of the Trinity and other Roman Catholic doctrines. Sola and DHK defends Roman doctrines but they say they are not Catholics. Amazing isn't that. They will criticize many Catholic beliefs but will adhere to and hold on to others.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
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    No, hrhema, we believe the Bible, not a man (or a woman's teaching), like Ellen G. White's.
    Why is it in Acts 20:7, the believers met on the first day of the week?
    Why is it that the Corinthians in 1Cor.16 brought their offerings on the first day of the week (the day that they gathered together)?
    Was this a change the Roman Catholic Church commanded the Apostle Paul to make? :rolleyes:
     
  18. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    3AM: What does this stuff about the stoning of Stephen have to do with the sabbath?
    :confused:
    hrhema: The Catholics believe that Jesus died on the cross for you sins - do you defend that???? I hope so!!!
     

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