What took place at the cross?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by 2BHizown, Nov 5, 2005.

  1. 2BHizown

    2BHizown
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    When Christ died,

    1) He made a substitutionary sacrifice for sins (Heb9,10)

    2) He propitiated, that is appeased or placated, the righteous wrath of God (Rom3:25; Heb. 2:17, 1 John 2:2; 4:10)

    3) He reconciled His people to God--that is, He removed the enmity between them and God (Rom5:10; ll Cor.5:20; and

    4) He redeemed them from the curse of the law (Gal.3:13)

    Did He or didnt He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didnt He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved.
    Did Christ actually redeem Judas from the curse of the law by actually becoming a curse for him, so that Judas is no longer under the curse of the law?
    Did Christ truly reconcile Esau to the Father by His death or didnt He?
    What did Christ actually do at the cross? Thus the nature of the atonement--what did He do? Did He accomplish something there or did He just make something possible?
    If the death of Jesus is what the Bible says it is--a substitutionary sacrifice for sins, an actual and not a hypothetical redemption, whereby the sinner is really reconciled to God-then, obviously it cannot be for every man in the world. For then everybody would be saved, and obviously they are not!!
    What are your thoughts on what transpired at the cross?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    He absolutely DID for 1 John 2:2 says that "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" !1John 2:2 NIV

    And as a Calvinist here has "admitted" that sacrifice was sufficient for ALL sins of ALL mankind in ALL of time!!

    That faultly logic comes from not fully understanding the nature of the atonement. The "Atoning Sacrifice" is not the "appeasement" or "propitiation" that a greek pagan system would call it -- rather it is in the Hebrew model of ATONMENT>

    In the Hebrew model - "GOD so LOVED that HE GAVE". John 3:16. In this Model "Gos was IN CHRIST reconciling the World TO HIMSELF" 2Cor 5.

    In the pagan Greek model of propitiation "Christ so suffered and died that the mean old angry god was finally appeased and relented of the harm he intended for us".

    In the pagan greek model your argument works perfectly because all those for whom the angry god is "Appeased" or "propitiated" are completely free of the wrath and penalty of sin.

    In that case "appeasement for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" is in fact universalism just as you charge!!

    Christ became a "curse for us" -- he took the stroke for us - His is the subtitutionary atoning sacrifice that we see in the Day of Atonement in Lev 16:8-9.

    But you then go on to "ignore" the entire process of atonement "as if" the chapter ended in Lev 16:9 -- it is the work of Christ as High Priest (not just as lamb) that is also needed for the process of Atonement to be complete for the individual. And this is where you miss the boat.

    At the cross we have the Atoning Sacrifice - UNLIMITED and universal.

    But in Heb 7-10 we have the High Priestly work of Christ in heaven that follows and that is ALSO referenced in Leb 16. It is combination of CHRISTS WORK at the Cross and CHRISTS work as High Priest in heaven that accomplishes "Atonement".

    The work of the High Priest according to Heb 4 is individual and specific to our salvation where we accept Him as our Savior. It is the work that includes the role of God as impartial judge (Romans 2) where "Judgment is passed in faovr of the saints" Daniel 7:21.

    That judgment is "specific to the individual" as Paul points out in Romans 2.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Having said all of that - the result is that the suffering and death of Christ on the cross was universal and unlimited -- "for all" just as 1John 2:2 says "For OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD".

    But "Atonement" that includes BOTH the death of Christ AND the work of Christ as our High Priest is relational, specific to the individual and Limited so that only those who accept salvation are "born again" and only they are shown "by their fruits" Matt 7 and it is only of them that Christ concludes "Judgdment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22

    Christ stands at the door and knocks and ONLY those who hear AND OPEN the door experience the "result" which is union according to Christ in Rev 3.

    The error in Calvinism is that it tries to ignore the work of Christ as our High Priest - in Calvinism's downsized definition of "Atonement". And having done that - they need a "limited sacrifice" at the cross!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi 2BHizown;
    John answered this and you refferenced it;
    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    Why not read and study this verse then tell us all what you missed before you started this thread.
    The way that his story is written you would know that it was already to late for Judas.

    According to John, Judas was lost.

    Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
    There are no second chances once your dead it's to late to change your mind. Judas lived for Judas not for Christ. The same is true today if you don't live for Christ you're on the wrong path. We are not saved by the crusifiction of Christ we are saved by grace through our faith. Christ paying our sin debt only made it possible to be saved.
    He paid our sin debt so that the world might be saved, through faith.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    You're forgetting the main ingredient "FAITH"
    Without which no one is saved.
    Most reject Christ and go to hell. We have to have faith in Christ. We have to believe in Him and turn from our sin.

    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    In The Light Of Christ;
    Mike
     
  5. 2BHizown

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    ROFL, This is such fun! Thanks KJB, as always you're right to the point! I know that the tenets of calvinism are true, scripturally sound, and will at the last day be proven so! IN the meantime we will continue to explore our differences until we fine tune God's truth to us!
    Those who seek and knock are believers, else they wouldnt be seeking or knocking! This verse actually speaks to the church of Laodicea, who is lax, lukeward and not following closely after God! Happens a lot you know, even today!
    It was just because the Father had given some people to Jesus that He came to earth to die for them. John 6:37-40 Jesus had a goal in mind, to fulfil the Fathers purpose. The decretive will of the Father was not to save all people but that of all that were given to Jesus by the Father would be saved! For this purpose Jesus died, v38.
    Romans 8:32 shows the 'all' of verse 32 refers to all the elect. This entire passage is about believers. God's promises are for those He foreordained, justified and glorified. The 'us all' are those Christians Paul is talking about.
    The purpose of our Fathers predestination and the Son's atonement are the same, the salvation of the elect. This limit to the atonement is based on unconditional election.
    You cant have it both ways. If not a universalist then limited atonement is obvious To say Christ died for all would either require that all are saved and they're not. What took place at the cross was the purchase of the elect! When someone pays a debt for another it it paid, nothing left owing to be paid for later! If Christ died for all why then are unbelievers still going to hell to pay for what He supposedly already paid for for them?
     
  6. King James Bond

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    2BHizown,

    I have to be honest with you.....you did not learn that all on your own. The truth is God has worked in your heart according to His will and desire....He has blessed you!

    KJB
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    Let's knock it off, guys.
     
  8. King James Bond

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    I am serious that 2BHizown has really been blessed.

    The real blessing is in a contrite heart.

    God has done this.

    KJB
     
  9. 2BHizown

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    No offense Pastor Larry! It is just so great to explore thoughts and hear other views and share my own! The problem mostly is that we're pretty well set in our doctrines and reluctant to change! I realized that a few years back and thought of all the different churches I'd been a member of this this lifetime. I got really serious and asked the Lord to help me drop off all the old teachings and to teach me His Word His way and to open my heart to His truth! Shortly thereafter I learned of the doctrines of grace and can now see that they are so biblically sound and I wonder how I'd never heard of all this before! Soooo, now when I have opportunity I just hope the same might occur in another life and the love and excitement of knowing our sweet Lord chose us will cause a great increased zeal in our churches! Such a desperate need today to be discerning and to worship our Lord in truth! I know many armenians truly love the Lord! L also believe they would be estatic to truly see the doctrines of grace in its fullness! What comfort! All exchange here is in good faith, good fun, good learning, good way to glorify our sweet Lord!!
    Blessings,
     
  10. 2BHizown

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    Thanks Bob Ryan and ILoveLight for your post, put together so well and clearly state your belief!

    However, I want to address how and why I disagree.
    Bob spoke of the OT sacrifices. We know that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. We also know that the OT sacrifices did absolutely nothing for the soul but were a type which pointed to Christ and His work in the NT. Of course He is both the sacrifice and the high priest,as stated in Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    We know the wages of sin is death! Thats what we all were charged with and what Christ paid for on the cross for all those who belong to HIm. Christ work was a perfect fulfillment of the law, once for all time!
    In his book The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Loraine Boettner states the Arminian theory has simply made it possible for all men to cooperate with divine grace and thus save themselves--if they will. If it merely made salvation possible, it applied to all men. If it effectively secured salvation, it had reference only to the elect!
    Regarding 'faith': Faith is a gift as stated in Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them!
    Not only the grace but the faith, both are gifts from God!
    Calvinist are the only group that worship a majestic, holy sovereign God, high and lifted up and give total thanks and gratitude for all of it to God!! Soli deo gloria!!
    Blessings,
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Actually I was just pointing out that God's own definition of "atonement" and the fact that it includes the unique work of Christ as our High Priest is already documented in Scripture in Lev 16 -- and the fulfillment is documented by God in Heb 7-10.

    This means that the reality that the Lev 16 model points to included BOTH the Work of Christ as the Lamb AND the work of Christ as our High Priest (Heb 7-10)

    Well it is good to see that we can agree on that much.

    Very true as Heb points out His Work of High Priest began in heaven "For if he were on earth He would not be a priest AT ALL" Heb 8:4. Instead of that He ascended to the right hand of the FAther exaulted as our High Priest who "appears NOW in Heaven for us" where we have "One Mediator between God and man" 1Tim 2.

    1Tim 2
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    Again it is good to find agreement in accepting the truth of scripture.

    That is also true. His "once for all" sacrifice (Heb 10) is administered in heaven "in the true tabernacle - the heavenly one" with the blood of a "better sacrifice" as Christ appears for us - now in heaven by a new and living way.

    The UNLIMITED sacrifice "The Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV 1John 2:2 - is followed by the work of Christ "NOW IN HEAVEN FOR US" as the "ONE mediator between God and man" as the "High Priest" --

    Hebrews 4
    14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.


    More than that "merely making it possible" the Cross provides the "ATONING SACRIFICE" NIV 1John 2:2 which we see in Lev 16:8-9 but it is ALSO FOLLOWED by the Work of Christ as High Priest - that God says is ALSO essential to the Bible Concept of Atonement as defined by God in Lev 16..

    "Effectively secured salvation" is a Calvinist term -- not a Bible one.

    It goes back to the example in 2Cor 5 where Calvinism is forced to spin its own argument on its head. In 2Cor 5 God "was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" yet "WE BEG you on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED to God"

    As I have already shown - the argument you are trying to use would insult God by saying "well then God you did NOT effectively reconcile the world OR EVEN THE ELECT at the Cross no matter what your Word says" --

    The point remains and you seem to be emphasizing that fact without doing anything to refute it in your argument.

    Why are you taking that approach?

    Indeed it is for as Romans 12 says "FOR TO EACH ONE is given a measure of faith" -- it is a gift.

    See! We agree again!

    This is going well.

    Praise God that is totally false!

    The good news is that we have come a long way so far in this discussion. Lets keep going.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Wrong. The Rev 3 text shows that the one Knocking and seeking Is Christ Himself. And those ALONE without Christ (as in "not in union with Christ") are the sinners - the lost - those "without Christ".

    If we pay attention to the details we see that "UNION WITH CHRIST" takes place when the one who is ALONE and WITHOUT Christ on the inside "hears AND OPENS the door".

    That is how God describes it --

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. 2BHizown

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    I fail to see what the difficulty is with llCor5 as that happens to be a favorite verse which we declare to all who indicate they dont know Christ! Wonderful verse that affirms imputation, what could be greater to a calvinist? "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in HIm v21. In the part about 'reconciling the world' we acknowledge that our God brings sinners to Himself through regeneration, into a forgiveness and right relationship with Himself. This of course is the very 'bones' of the gospel, beautiful to the calvinist!!
    Again, I have no problem with Daniel 7:22,"until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the MOst HIgh, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom". God who confers the messianic kingdom on the Son to rule at His second coming and following. Jusdment is against the Antichrist, Satan who empowers him and the unsaved who are not allowed into the kingdom at its outset, but are destroyed and await the final, Great White Throne resurrection and judgment. Believers enter the kingdom in its earthly, millenial phase following Christ's second coming, having eternal life that continues into the eternal state after the thousand years.(NKJV footnotes)
    That is too wonderful! How does that pose a problem for calvinists I dont see!
    Again, all people, calvinists included are sinners until regenerated! God is sovereign and brings His own to Himself in His own timing!
     
  14. BobRyan

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    I agree that both Calvinists and Arminian evangelists use this. But the point is that Calvinists do this by "ignoring" their own arguments about why "world can not mean world".

    Hint: You never see them use "World can not really mean world" in 2Cor 5 as they do with John 3:16 AND STILL connect it with "So we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God"!!

    In other words - by ignoring the disconfirming facts showing Calvinism to be wrong in 2Cor 5 -- they are free to embrace the text.

    The "obvious problem" for Calvinism is the part where "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD TO Himself" at the cross and yet STILL we have "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED"!! The part you are still ignoring in your response!

    Yes that is the part AFTER the problem verses for Calvinism.

    Indeed you do - but you STILL ignore the "WORLD" definition issue - even in that response.

    Still waiting ...

    Oops! Now you have left 2Cor 5 ENTIRELY without addressing my explicit question to you about "WORLD" in 2Cor 5.

    What is up with that?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    By not actually quoting anything in my post above - you are sidestepping the point I am making and simply pointing to parts of Daniel 7 that you will accept.

    That is not a compelling form of response-to-the-point.

    The point was the fact that this post cross work is included in the full scope of "Atonement" and that limiting Atonement to "just the cross" hacks Lev 16's teaching in Atonement into a small segment ending with vs 8-9.

    I am pointing to the TWO roles of Christ in Atonement (as seen in LEv 16). He is both the LABM and the High Priest. His role of High Priest INCLUDES the INDIVIDUAL work of Christ as seen in Daniel 7 with specific judgment "passed in favor of the saints" once the books are opened and the records reviewed.

    That INDIVIDUAL aspect when INCLUDED IN ATONEMENT solves the problem of limited atonement.

    True enough - but that simply ignores the point raised from Lev 16 and Daniel 7 about the fact of Atonement including BOTH The UNLIMITED aspect of the CRoss and the INDIVIDUAL aspect of the work of Christ AFTER the cross!

    (not to keep repeating a point that you are sidestepping or anything - but I am still waiting for the direct response to the point).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. King James Bond

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    2BHizown,

    You and your posts are right on target and I have to agree with your point of view.

    We can see clearly that the whole world is not atoned for. The reference to "world" most of the time simply meant those outside of Israel.

    The word world did not mean every single solitary person in the world.

    How would we know this? Why don't we take a look into the future;

    “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father ; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world

    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed , into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    We can clearly see that those on the left have not been atoned for.

    Let us take another look into the future;

    And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

    I think it is perfectly clear that the atonement is limited in scope.

    Some people are not atoned for. If they were....they would not go to hell.

    2BHizown, Great topic!

    KJB
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Well - then there is Matt 7.

    Notice that the command is NOT to God telling God "please STRIVE to get your chosen people to enter by the narrow gate -" nor is the command to a select group who “can only BE the elect”. (No such filter exists). RATHER the command is to US (the group having within it – the MANY and the FEW). - To God's own church telling us to choose to STRIVE, to make effort, to focus energy on entering the narrow gate and using as the “motivation” the DANGER of not doing so (explicitly identified in the text), The danger is not “supposed” but is perfectly and explicitly stated. INSTEAD of placing the DIFFERENCE between success and failure on God who DID make some enter vs God who DID NOT make others enter nor is it on God who made some strive and did not make others strive. The command is to the group having the MANY and the FEW. The text shows plainly that God has provided for success and now it is the choice of man to choose to strive or not - choice that God gives him. Choice that is being “compelled” by the argument regarding success and failure.

    Any time argument, motive, compelling facts are used to influence a choice – you have explicit Arminianism.

    As Peter says "For if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved - what of those who do not obey" .

    --

    The instruction above is to the audience - to the listener - the reader.

    And then what follows is instruction to the reader/listener about OTHERS - how to judge OTHERS. Seems kind of amazing given the way this chapter starts out.
    Fascinating truths.

    #1. There is on “nice” way to get rid of all the “bad trees” from the group Christ is speaking to – so He helps them “identify” the “wolves in sheep’s clothing”.

    #2. The Gospel change is from the INSIDE OUT - not from the OUTSIDE
    in. The FRUIT (the external ACTIONS that are SEEN) are simply the RESULTS of what has ALREADY been done on the INSIDE once one chooses to believe, chooses repentance, chooses to yield to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.

    Christ says "A bad tree bears BAD fruit" - believe it. First we must appeal to the creator - to CREATE in us a CLEAN HEART, a NEW HEART, a NEW CREATION so that OLD things are passed away and ALL things are become new - THEN we will see the FRUIT "Christ IN YOU" for it will then be "No longer I who LIVE (act, work) but Christ who LIVES IN ME". Gal 2:20.

    Yet today many "expect" the tree to be "good" even though the fruit is bad - even though one is lost in rebellion. At other times they want the "tree to be bad" even though the fruit is "good" and the person is seen to be "putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit" Romans 8.

    Christ rejects those ideas in this chapter.
    =================================

    The scope again - is for EVERYONE. Seldom will we find people willing quote all 3 of these verses of scripture together for the implication is obvious and confronting. NOT everyone who SAYS the magic words (you may pick any magic mantra you want there) - but those that DO the will of the Father and that HEAR and OBEY the words of God. Just as Paul states in Romans 2.
     
  18. 2BHizown

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    Bob, You seem to have great trouble with most post of calvinists! Why is that? Is it difficult for you to study their doctrines of grace and compare them to yours? I suggest you give it a try.
    When finished do word studies on 'world' and 'atonement' and ask the Lord to open the eyes of your heart, just in some microscopic possibility that you may not have heard something He wanted you to know. I did that very thing and have been amazed at the eye opening insight I have had since then! When we stop resisting His Word and trying to make it say what we want, then we start to really learn the truth! He is sovereign! Soli deo gloria!!
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Calvinists SEE the errors of Calvinism being exposed in the Arminian arguments against CAlvinism - and when this is particularly effective - their ownly response is to ignore the points raised and simply bail out with a kind of "nobody understands me" complaint.

    That is not a compelling form of debate friends.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Incorrect on several counts Bob. You have yet to present a legitmate argument against Calvinism. Your arguments are based on distortions and misunderstandings. That is the problem. You don't give us anything to actually address. If you argued that Calvinists believe we were saved by little green men from Mars planting vegetable gardens you would not be much farther from the truth.

    There comes a point of such absurdity that doesn't even deserve a continued response. You continually repeat the same old tired answered arguments as if they are new. Talk about not compelling.

    Do this: Address what we actually believe. Then the debate will be better.
     

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