What view of justice is "carnal" and what is not?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 18, 2011.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Over the years my 'non-calvinistic' view of divine justice has been deemed 'carnal,' but what is the measure of such an accusation?

    Calvinism attributes to God determinations, which in any similar human context would be considered unjust by all objective observers.

    Yet, by what measure do we deem God 'good' and 'just?' If we look to scripture where it speaks of the just manner in which one should treat another the Calvinists simply dismisses those passages as not applicable to God, but only a measure for how men should act.

    If one points to scripture regarding God's holy nature and the fact that he wouldn't even tempt men to sin, they simply defer to 'secondary causes' by which God causally determines the means by which the temptation is sure to take place but where He himself is not the actual tempter thus somehow subtly removing any culpability for effectually bringing the temptation to pass. So, you have God doing anything and everything through secondary means as if that somehow justifies it.

    Why does He do this, you ask? The ultimate good, according to Calvinism, is God’s glory. And one would think God's glory would be more manifest by promoting a sense of true justice, but the opposite is the case in the Calvinistic worldview. In fact, it appears that the more people who are repulsed by their view of God's justice the less 'carnal' it must be. Just ignore the fact those repulsed are also born again believers, including many of them when first introduced to reformed theology.

    It appears to me that this appeal to God's Glory for the Calvinist has become some kind of a blank check to justify whatever they believe God is responsible for doing, regardless of how 'wrong' it might appear to the rest of us 'carnal' observers.

    If God had chosen to save everyone or damn everyone, Calvinists would say it was for His glory. So the theory doesn’t explain anything, since it could be used to explain everything. There is no measure of what 'evil' a Calvinist could claim God has or has not done (through whatever primary or secondary means necessary of course) when he has the blank check waiting in his back pocket ready to pull out at the first sign of any protest by one of the 'carnal' observers. So, I guess we'll just keep our mouths shut (or maybe not) for fear of offending their concept of what is Glorious about our God lest we be labeled once again as "carnal."
     
    #1 Skandelon, Dec 18, 2011
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  2. 12strings

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    1. I believe it would behoove us who lean toward Calvinism to refrain from assigning motives to other believers (like not cals) who have stated that their motives are not what we say they are. This would be a common courtesy that could well be observed on all sides.

    2. However, If I firmly believe that the Bible teaches that God has acted in a way that I personally don't see as fair or just (such as imputing Adam's sin nature to me, or electing some for salvation and not others, or telling Abraham to kill his own son, or ordering The Israelites to wipe out entire populations including women and children); I DO think it is an appropriate response to say "What God has done seems to be the wrong thing to me, but I will accept that it is the right thing, because God has indeed done it."

    3. Also, If we see that some refuse to accept that God actually did what we believe the bible teaches he did, it is very natural for us to believe they are wrong, and try to figure out why they will not accept what we believe to be the truth; and to attempt to show them their error.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    skan ...you say


    The ultimate good, according to scripture, is God’s glory....calvinists believe those verses.:thumbs:


    This kind of post is completely mis-guided.


    according to scripture..once again.

    yes...because that is exactly what scripture teaches:thumbs: sorry you do not see it as we do.
     
  4. marke

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    I get the impression from some Christians that they think God is only in love with Himself and that He is only interested that He not be offended or that people give Him raw obedience and respect to satisfy His desire for glory. They exalt the glory of God as seen on Mt. Sinai, forgetting that that glory was to be done away with.

    God loves people and doesn't want them to be hurt by sin, which is why He stands so adamantly against sin. When Jesus was climbing the hill Calvary to the cross, the Bible doesn't say His eyes were on Himself. It doesn't even say His eyes were fixed on God alone, but it does say He was focused on the joy He was looking forward to in the redemption of His bride. His eyes were on His people, and the great love He had for the dearest to Him in the universe. God doesn't have to worship God, which frees Him to love His people abundantly with overflowing grace.

    Adam is a type of Christ. Jesus is even referred to as the last Adam. In God's creation of Adam we can see God's purpose in the creation of man in full detail. God could have made legions of men to praise and worship Him out of stone cold rocks, and they would have burst forth in loud hosannahs at the instant of their conception. God did not make man because He wanted a choir of sycophant singers. God said, "It is not good that man should be alone..."

    God was looking for a bride. Adam (Jesus) needed someone like Himself to love intimately - not like the love of beasts, or angels, or robots, but people like Himself. God made man to love. Adam was put to sleep and his side was opened up so that his bride could be delivered to him, without spot or wrinkle, perfect in every way. Jesus laid down His life on the cross and His side was opened up so that the blood and water could come out to wash and cleanse and give birth to His precious bride.

    Why did Jesus have to die? Adam saw that Eve had fallen from grace in disobedience to God and for his great love for her he went to where she was so that he could be with her. The whole earth was plunged into darkness because of what Adam did in love for his bride. There was another time when the whole earth was plunged into darkness when the last Adam hung on that cross, becoming separated from God and becoming sin for us, so He could rescue His Bride and bring her back to Him.

    The message of the cross is not primarily a message about the wrath of God against sin (Mt. Sinai), but is instead a message about the love of God for His bride (Mt. Calvary).
     
    #4 marke, Dec 18, 2011
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  5. preacher4truth

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    Exactly. :thumbsup:

    We see Job, do we not, proclaiming that he received evil at the hand of God, yet, he did not sin in so doing? Certainly in todays world the non-cals would cry unfair, or state that Job was making God the author of evil, or sin, or a "monster."

    I found it interesting today in my reading of Scripture that God arranged things to take out Absalom. Does that make God the "author of evil?" Never. He is Just and the Justifier. He can do, and does do as He wills with His creation, and yet forever remains Holy, just, righteous, pure and perfect.

    God is completely and wholly other, and perfect in His being, and cannot be affected by sin, and has set in motion all things in this world. He remains just and holy in doing so, for there is only One who is God. He is in Sovereign control of this universe.

    The accusation that we are giving God a blank check is unfounded among other things, and a poor description, yet it is a commentary upon certain. Rather, we give God nothing, except our sins.

    Instead of us giving God a "blank check" it all boils down to "do you trust Him or not?" Yet, we still have those who reply against the Potter, whom the Holy Spirit via Paul in Scriptures has rebuked.

    Ponder that.

    I believe God must and does bring men through some series of events to where they see His Sovereignty and Severity yet, even seeing the things He does, said would still desire greatly to KNOW Him in a more intimate sense, and to know His ways even more, even when we see His judgments upon men, as Moses in Exodus 33. In our politically correct and "fairness" culture we see this idea being balked at, as those within churches have been thoroughly indoctrinated by this worlds system, and to them somehow God Himself must also bow to this in order to be "acceptable" and determined as "fair", and thus "God."

    I find it of great interest the infatuation with this facet of God, especially His attributes relating to His Sovereignty. This agenda reminds me of the book "Moby Dick" and Captain Ahabs obsession with this "Sovereign" whale. In the end it cost Captain Ahab dearly.

    Perhaps truly trusting God is giving Him a blank check, and not seeing such as underhanded and monstrous. Afterall, we're talking about Holy God here, and the way one confabulates about Him actually conveys to others more about themselves than of God (for he is God no matter) this in addition to showing forth how one feels about Him. All of this said, yet not to forget that He is looking in on all of these things presently.

    Perhaps all of these things happen so that we may not lie about the attitudes of our own hearts toward Him, but that we may instead run to Him, trust Him, confess, and ask for understanding of these things, confessing that we are finite, and that He is Holy God? Afterall, He sees all of these things regardless.

    - Peace
     
    #5 preacher4truth, Dec 18, 2011
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  6. Iconoclast

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    marke

    this is not correct;
    No one believes these ideas,which are not biblical
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Very nice post P4T...you havepointed out once again that as believers we should ...believe ...in God's goodness, and trust Him alone, and fully.:thumbsup:
     
  8. Skandelon

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    I think we all agree His glory is the ultimate good, but that wasn't the point being made...

    Such a helpful comment. Thank you.

    We all believe our view is "according to scripture." Again, such a great contribution. Thanks.

    Ditto. :rolleyes:
     
  9. preacher4truth

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    Thanks.

    I find this statement of great interest from skan, which you've addressed Icon:

    ...and to which I will comment.

    1) We nor anyone has God "doing" anything, nor everything. He does anything and everything He does on His own accord.

    2) God does use secondary means to accomplish His purposes, and is Just in using His creation in the manner He chooses to do so in accomplishing His purposes.

    3) God doesn't need to be "justified" nor does he seek to "be justified" via the means He chooses.

    Such an indictment and thought as the quote above is to me simply and seemingly impious in nature. I cannot imagine how it might have been received during a time as the Great Awakening, or in other times before these days, or in a contemporary "Biblical" setting. But maybe that's just me?

    - Peace
     
    #9 preacher4truth, Dec 18, 2011
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  10. Iconoclast

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    No.....you keep saying calvinism says...I pointed out scripture says...it is one and the same.

    You and your non stop anti-cal jihad does not lend itself to helpful comments.
    It reminds me of a coach who explained to me that you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken poop.

    In the past two weeks.....6-7 people have told you that your threads do not represent the position...yet you persist in offering the same false ideas.

    hint.....when people say...do not put words in my mouth,or, your original premise is wrong,etc...you are twisting the view.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    And just like everything else you wrote, this amounts to nothing more than the debate fallacy called "question begging." To put that in layman's terms, that means you are saying, "We are right because we are right," to which I would say the same thing to you in an endless cycle. It is a waste of time and the lowest form of discussion. I chose not to engage with that any longer. Thank you.
     
  12. Benjamin

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    I believe any view which displays one does not recognize that God is only Good, Truth and Love reveals that they do not have a relationship with Him that is built in love with Him. Those that attribute evil to Him, whether directly or in a roundabout way, may believe in Him, fear Him, study His word and understand that He is the Only way to salvation, but it is abundantly apparent they don’t know Him or they would know that He is Love in Truth and there is no possibility of evil coming our Loving Father. If one can’t find it in their own heart/conscience why they would freely turn to Him, yet they believe in Him, they have little left to but to declare they had no choice in the matter. Such a belief demonstrates a carnal mindset which is resentful of God’s power and righteous judgment upon all mankind because they struggle to bear the condition of faith from their own heart which only comes from love of the Truth.

    It is no wonder those who feel they had no choice in the matter would attempt to proclaim His sovereignty as deterministic, but God is just in His judgment which is conditional upon faith and has declared none will have an excuse and that seems to explain the bitterness.
     
  13. convicted1

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    I agree with everything you posted here Brother Benjamin.


    But remember this. God, in His justice, has to punish sinners for their sins. Not that they were forced/coerced into doing them, but they are sent to torment because of their evil doings. God calls to the lost, not willing that any should perish, that all would come to repentence. It's those who reject Him, in His justice, and righteousness, that He has to turn them away on the last day. I am sure that you agree with this, btw.
     
  14. quantumfaith

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    Excellent post Mark,

    For the scriptures say: "God is Love" I Johne 4:8

    Non-Calvinist's believe these verses.

    18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    20Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

    21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Non Calvinists believe these verses too.

    The OP is not misguided at all. Thanks to those who can ask such questions in honestly and humility.
     
  15. quantumfaith

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    And the "non-calvinists" would say the same the same thing, that WE too believe in God's Goodness, Greatness and trust him alone.

    It is not becoming of you to to "suggest" that WE (not of your persuasion) do not do this, if in fact this is what you are trying to imply. If you are genuinely NOT doing this, then ignore.
     
  16. 12strings

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    MARKE:
    Where in the world do you get this? Adam sinned with Eve because he loved her so much and didn't want her to sin alone? I'm glad my wife doesn't love me this much...
     
  17. Aaron

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    Glad you're on Scandal's side. :laugh:
     
  18. Aaron

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    A carnal or natural sense of justice is that man can discern from nature. It's something we're all born with, and you can hear it come out in practically any quarrel between children and adults alike. "I was here first!" "It's time for you to return the favor." "You broke it, you fix it." So the question, "Why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?" is a perfectly natural question.

    But Paul's response isn't an attempt to placate one's sense of fairness or to give one any room to think that he can stand in judgment of God. He goes straight to the heart of the matter and puts one in his place. Nay, but, O man, who do you think you are? Shall the creation answer back to its Creator? It's the same answer Job got when he thought that God might have been treating him a bit unfairly. Where were you when I created all these things that are much bigger than you?

    God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. One's natural sense of justice will never be satisfied when he presumes to examine God, because God is too big, and His ways too far above the understanding of men.

    A spiritual sense of justice begins with the humble submission to God's will, whatever it may be.
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    A wrong view of God does lead to wrong thinking about God.
    This as written...is as P4T would say is deficient. God is only good, only truth,only love.....but he is also only righteous,only just,only holy,only wise, etc. To cherry pick a few attributes and neglect the rest is wrong
    both sides are mentioned together...in other words...the God of Jn.3:16...is the same God who destroyed the world of the ungodly in Gen6....


    The only people who attribute evil to God here on BB are those who do not understand God's grace,and try and pin that idea upon those who understand the grace of God as revealed in all the scripture.

    Only you and the other non-cals offer this idea......calvinists have said time and time again that God is not the author of evil.....and yet you because of your lack of understanding insist it can be so.

    In this very post you do it with this phrase:"
    This so called "roundabout"way...is where your misunderstanding forces you to twist and accuse cals of your false claim....so your carnal philosophical view
    can attempt to set aside divine truth.

    This is a clear denial of revealed truth.....because you have a wrong view of the fall, an inflated view of man and his ability.
    So whats left...you become an accuser of the brethren.You project on others the very thing you do.

    you project it right here:
     
  20. preacher4truth

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    You express and display a superficial understanding here of God to which most in the church hold to. It is an exiguous misunderstanding and theology painted with romantic concepts, while missing the entire truth altogether. One in such a state has fashioned his or her concept of God to their liking, leaving out the facets of God to which they object, which facets are abundant throughout the Biblical record.

    What is said then is nothing more than a flowery sermonette, a poetic utterance that could grace the back of any church newsletter for those members who rarely if ever open their Bibles to see the true God in all His glory, and rarely if ever hear the Word preached in all of its truth.

    Thus most of this cloth would be appalled if confronted with the true God of Scriptures, and thus they are. Those who are in such a case blazon themselves forth by a continuous remonstrance against said truths.

    - Peace
     
    #20 preacher4truth, Dec 19, 2011
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