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What was the Answer from God when you prayed God to forgive your sins?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Eliyahu, Mar 23, 2007.

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  1. mcdirector

    mcdirector Active Member

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    This does seem to get to the heart of it. As a Christian, my sin, while already forgiven, separates me from my Savior until I recognize how it's polluted me (to use Ed's word).

    I also want to say that (at least in my experience) most folks coming to know the Lord aren't biblical scholars and may not understand the nuances of then (2000+ years ago of the shedding of Jesus' blood) and the very real NOW experience of recognizing their need for a Savior. I'm also not sure that in the grand scheme of things that it matters for the newly saved. We know that God views time differently than we are capable of viewing it.

    Did I hear God speak when I came to Him on my knees knowing that nothing but Him could change me? No, but the results were instantaneous. I knew that He had answered without a doubt as much as I knew that I desparately needed Him.

    And yes, I have prayed for God to forgive me of something (one thing) time and time again. BUT it was because I wasn't ready to relinquish control, I wasn't ready to submit. And until I was, this was really a fruitless exercise. The head knew it had to go - the rest of me didn't want to follow . . .
     
    #61 mcdirector, Apr 2, 2007
  2. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    What I think is, "certain doctrinal systems" deny this "dichotomy", all together. The "Lordship Salvation", "Arminian - whatever that means", Roman Catholic, and so-called "Reformed" who claim to be Calvinistic - whatever that means, are some that come easily to mind.

    I guess you would not be all that surprised to find me as one of the "free-grace" types, hunh! :laugh:

    And what I find in the story (not a parable, BTW) of the father and his two sons is that both were out of 'fellowship' with the father. The obnoxious, judgmental, self-seeking, self-centered, and yes, selfish, older brother was just as much a son as was the prodigal. The father showed the same love toward him, and personally pled with the older brother to come inside and 'fellowship'. Scripture never says the older brother did that, in fact he, in essence, wrote off his own brother as "This, your Son!", to the father. All because of a steak dinner!

    (Lower lip stuck out! "You never even gave me a kid, to party with my friends!!") His friends were more important to him than his family. Are you all that surprised that they weren't around any more than the prodigal's were?

    And yet he had all the father's goods as his own but wanted to be given even more! One was just as "dead", meaning 'separated' to the father's will, yet the older was literally never out of the father's sight, so to speak! But enough of the hi-jack! I've covered this before, in greater detail.

    Ed
     
    #62 EdSutton, Apr 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2007
  3. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Thanks for the kind words, Matt Black and mcdirector. My only aim is to help in understanding. Glad you got it! :thumbsup:

    Ed
     
    #63 EdSutton, Apr 2, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2007
  4. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Good point about the older brother. However, that doesn't change the fact that one who is unrepentantly remaining "'separated' to the father's will" (ie "out of 'fellowship'") is--barring repentance--ultimately "lost" and "dead" to the father. One certainly can't use this scripture to bolster the historically novel teaching of OSAS.

    "If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk (present tense) in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us (present tense) from all sin." 1 John 1:6-7


    In other words a present tense "walking in the light" (being in 'fellowship') with God is necessary for a present tense cleansing from sin. And lest one think that one can have a genuine 'relationship' with God while living in unrepentant and uncleansed sin...

    "Nowby this we know that we know Him, ifwe keep His commandments. He who says 'I know Him', but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:3-5.

    And this of course is perfectly consistent with the father's words in the parable of the Prodigal in which he characterizes he who was living in rebellion as being both 'lost' and 'dead' to him. If we don't continue to abide (or 'stand') by faith 'in the Vine' (Christ), we are in danger of being cut off and cast out as branches (John 15:6 and Romans 11:22).

    "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him" 1 John 3:6

    "He who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him." 1 John 3:24

    Which brings us back to the OP: Present tense forgiveness is contingent on our actually being in (abiding/standing/walking/etc) Christ, which includes keeping His commandments, and confessing our sins when we fail to do so (1 John 1:9) and repententing of those sins.
     
    #64 Doubting Thomas, Apr 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2007
  5. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    First, I deny that "once saved, always saved" whatever that (or any caricature of the same) may actually mean is, an "historically novel teaching" at all. And once again, you also overlook the difference between salvation and discipleship, and hence, the "free-gift" and "rewards", attempting to roll it all up into one conglomerate. But I've already posted to that effect, here, so will not belabor that point. If you did not see the difference then, you will probably not see it were I to repeat it. I'd suggest you re-read my post # 58, on page 6, of this thread, without a pre-conceived theological lens, and consider it again, with an open Bible. I don't want to sound like I am 'chiding', but simply know of no other way to say this.

    Also, for now at least the ninth time on the BB, I ask, Where does the Bible ever use the words "repent of/from (one's) sin(s)", at all? And as I've said the same number of times, I do believe and teach "repentance". For the Bible teaches repentance. But nowhere does Scripture use the words "repent from your sins" as far as I've been able to find. Nor are the words "unrepenting" or "unrepentant" to be found anywhere in Scripture (KJV, RV, and ASV), although I have no concordance to tell me about other versions. Your turn to show me where this wording is to be found, outside of a large number of pulpits! :rolleyes:

    And I believe you may be making an 'artificial' distinction in the Greek tenses, at least, as well. The Greek is more of a 'continual present', rather than our English concept of "present tense", I believe, to this effect, rendering I Jo. 1:7 in this manner. (Note also the subjunctive mood, as well.) "If we are walking in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus (Christ) His Son keeps on cleansing us from all sin."

    The verse (I Jo. 1:7) itself speaks of fellowship, not relationship.

    Ed
     
    #65 EdSutton, Apr 3, 2007
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Are you an alien sinner? The Question was addressed to YOU! not to the alien sinner! Again, Are you an alien sinner?
     
    #66 Eliyahu, Apr 3, 2007
  7. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Excellent Point - Once For ALL

    That's right, that't why I asked about "Daily Sins" after the salvation.

    and you mentioned CORRECTLY " CONFESS"

    But where in the Bible are we supposed to ASK for this Forgiveness after Jesus sacrificed Himself at the Cross?

    Correct. His Blood can cleanse us! His Blood was shed 2000 years ago. He doesn't shed the Blood each time when you commit the sins and ask for the forgiveness.

    The Elder son typifies Adam, the younger son typifies Born-again Christian in Jesus Christ who carried all of our sins.9 Even Jesus Christ can be referred to, compared to Adam).

    The Elder son didn't know what he had.
    Father embraced the younger son saying " thy brother was dead, and is alive again, and was lost and is found"

    There are many who live very well from the moral point of view but do not know what the Father gives. These people have never tasted the Blessings of Father but stayed in the self-righteousness saying " these many years do I serve thee, neither trangressed I at any time thy commandments, and yet thou never gave me a kid,..."

    This sounds like Pharisees and High Priest and this man :

    he said " All these have I kept from my youth up" ( Luke 18:21)

    On the other hand, the true believers who are truly born again in Jesus Christ, are like the younger son who was virtually dead but live again by regeneration and newness of the Holy Spirit ( titus 3:5)
     
    #67 Eliyahu, Apr 3, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    If anyone try to resolve their sin problem by appealing to any effort other than believing what Jesus did at the Cross, His Blood and Death at the Cross, she or he will get no answer from God.

    The merciful God will always direct the born-again believers or new comers to His beloved Son Jesus and His Blood and Death at the Cross.

    The cleansing of the sins from the believer after the Salvation is the same as the cleansing at the time of Being Born-again.

    If anyone claims that there is another solution for the sins other than the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, it is Pagan.

    In that sense, as Roman Catholic priests ask God to forgive their sins all the time, without delivering the Gospel that all the sins of the world were forgiven by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, Roman Catholic is Pagan!

    Roman Religion cannot teach the Gospel and their Sacrifice at the same time, because if they explain that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross, why should they perform the Mock-Sacrifice ( Mass) asking for the forgiveness? Are they not contradictory?

    They don't know that their sins can be forgiven only by the Gospel message itself, and that was done 2000 years ago already.

    This is why I asked Matt this question:

    Haven't Jesus died yet until you repent and ask God to forgive your sins?

    Didn't Jesus shed the Blood yet until you ask God to forgive?


    Let me tell you guys simple truth:

    Jesus paid all the price for all the sins of the world, all the sins of the universe and of the forth-ciming world, at the Cross, by shedding the precious, sinless Blood and by dying the most painful Death at the Cross.

    " It is finished"

    Are you claiming that " It is not finished yet" ?

    I would say again " It is finished Once For ALL". This applies to your Salvation and to your daily sins as well.
     
    #68 Eliyahu, Apr 3, 2007
  9. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    It is good that you referred to this verse.

    Have you ever experienced how the Blood of Jesus cleanse you from all sin?

    If you have, would you tell us the experience about how the Blood cleansed you because the Blood was shed 2000 years ago? How could the 2000 years ago Blood be connected with the current sins?
     
    #69 Eliyahu, Apr 3, 2007
  10. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Because our sins are current. You have a linear view of history which fails to take account of the fact that God, and in some ways His Son's sacrifice, are out of time. Thus, although the sacrifice was 2000 years ago, the benefits are applied today - you acknowledged this yourself when you said that if Saddam had believed, then forgiveness would have been his.

    Re your questions to me in your penultimate post - could you re-phrase them as I'm having difficulty in understanding the English there.
     
    #70 Matt Black, Apr 4, 2007
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    It is not to difficult to understand there as long as you tried to answer my question.
    Indeed, this portion is difficult for the religious people without the spiritual experience to understand the spiritually.

    Let me ask you shortly this.

    1) I hope you admit that there is no other solution for the daily sins after the salvation, than the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ.

    2) The above applies even to the unbelievers who have not had the experience of Being Born Again, the forgiveness of the entire sins of one's life.

    3) If you admit that the only solution for the sins of the daily life, either for the Born-again believer or for the Unbelievers, is the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, then it has become available 2000 years ago.

    4) Now, in this case, the real question is how one can connect two things, the current sin problem and the redemption of 2000 years ago.

    5) That cannot be answered by anyone else than the true believers who had the actual experience of hearing the Answer from God, that such specific sins were forgiven, based on the Redemption by Jesus.

    6) That's why I already asked you this question:
    Didn't Jesus shed the Blood and die at the Cross until you repent and ask God to forgive?
    You never answered me. But I guess you would have said Yes, He shed the Blood and died for that specific sin as well.

    7) What is lacking there and therefore Sadam couldn't make the forgiveness as his own? What is it?

    I told you " It is only the matter of Believing!" This is so much important and therefore you could find this word thousand times in the Bible while you can hardly find "ASK forgiveness "( after Jesus completed Cross).

    8) What prevents " such believing" ?
    Read John 3:18-21.
    Therefore 1 JOhn 1:9 encourage us to Confess the sins to God. Then God will forgive us by revealing the forgiveness at the Cross.

    Problem is the Unbelief, and therefore when the believer repent and confess the sins to God, God expands the Belief of the person so that she or he may realize that even the specific sin was included in the forgiveness at the Cross.

    9) How can we obtain or enhance such Belief ?
    Romans 10:17
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    This is why I said Roman Catholic people in the pews must listen to the
    Gospel that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross because of the Great Work by Jesus Christ, instead of performing the MOck-Sacrifice Show along with the Magic Show of Transubstantiation.


    Whenever I preach the Gospel to the Catholics, they say they hear such Gospel for the first time. How come they say so?

    9) What do you think has been the most and biggest sin throughout the history?

    I believe the sins of killing the Messiah.


    Jesus cried at the Cross, " Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"

    Do you think Father forgave the sins of the High Priest, priests and Jewish elders, and Roman soldiers? or do you think Father didn't forgive them?

    Do you think Father didn't accept the prayer by His Son?

    So, your sins and Sadam's sins have not been forgiven yet?

    Read Heb 10:17

    And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    Heb 10:18

    Now where the remission of these is, there is no more offering ( necessary) for sin.

    Do you still believe there should be Sacrifice for the sins ( like Catholic Mass) ?


    Finally let me reiterate the question again,

    From your experience, how did or does God connect your daily sin and the Redemption at the Cross?
     
    #71 Eliyahu, Apr 4, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  12. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    OK let me try to follow your numbered paragraphs:-

    1. Agreed. But without faith and repentance that solution cannot be applied.

    2. Agreed, subject to the caveat of #1 above

    3. Ditto

    4. Faith and repentance

    5. Define 'true believer' . Define the 'belief' element of that.

    6. Forgiveness is purchased and extended to all by the shedding of Jesus' blood 2000 years ago - but not all receive - why?

    7. Faith and repentance - which is what I hope you mean by 'belief' and not merely an intellectual assent eg: I believe the USA exists, but that doesn't make me an American; "even the demons believe and tremble"

    8. Do you really want to open up another Calvinism - v- Arminianism debate?

    9. Through reading the Scriptures, spending time with God and other believers, the activity of the Holy Spirit,etc

    Your final question: by faith and repentance. The latter involves confessing of sin and acceptance of forgiveness for that sin, thus restoring fellowship with the Lord.
     
    #72 Matt Black, Apr 5, 2007
  13. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    This whole debate would be moot if people would finally stop chasing their preconcieved notions and admit Lutherans are right and confess that God works through means to give us his grace.
     
    #73 Chemnitz, Apr 5, 2007
  14. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    You can deny it all you want, but it's a historical fact.

    No one in church history tried to separate salvation and discipleship (ie, actually following Christ) until within the past couple of hundred years...unless you want to count the Gnostics. But alas the dichotomy between salvation and discipleship is among many other such unscriptural dichotomies proffered by those who peddle antinomianism. (I know, I use to teach the same things)

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I was raised Southern Baptist and used to believe the same as you do. In other words, I used to share your 'pre-conceived theological lens'. However, with time I had more and more doubts that I could ignore the seemingly clear meaning of bothersome texts while trying to squeeze them into my doctrinal grid. I then considered again those long held views with an open Bible and finally rejected them.

    "..lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced." (2 Cor 12:21)
    --"Uncleanness", "fornication" and "lewdness" are all sins, are they not? Isn't Paul suggesting these folks need to repent of these things?

    "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation unless they repent of their deeds" (Rev 2:21-22)
    --Isn't "sexual immorality" a sin? Isn't Christ giving this woman (however interpreted) the opportunity to repent of this particular sin? Doesn't He say also that He'll cast others into tribulation unless they repent of their sinful "deeds"?

    "But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands....and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts." (Rev 9:20-21)
    --I'm pretty sure that idolatry, murder, "sorcery", sexual immorality, and theft are all sins, wouldn't you agree?

    So even though the exact phrase, "repent of your sins", may not be found verbatim in the Bible, Scripture is indeed clear that one is to repent of his sins. (I suppose one could go ahead and deny the Trinity as that word isn't found in the Bible either...wait...there are people who already do that for that precise reason...)

    Ask and you shall receive...
    "But in accordance with your hardness and impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God" (Romans 2:5)
    The word "impenitent" means "unrepentant". It is a translation of the Greek word 'ametanoetos' which of course conveys the opposite idea of 'metanoia' which is 'repentance'. (Never mind all the synonomous terms such as "hardness", "stubborn" etc) So there you have it: The impenitent (or unrepentant) man is indeed mentioned in the Bible and Paul teaches that such a one is treasuring up for himself wrath, not merely loss of rewards (Read Romans 2:5-10).

    Indeed it is "more of a 'continual present'". One must continue to "walk in the light" if one wants to continue to have his sins cleansed.

    And you are making a false dichotomy between the two where John does not. I notice you didn't respond to the second half of my post, but I'll type slower this time (while adding some comments in double brackets)....

    In other words a present tense "walking in the light" (being in 'fellowship') with God is necessary for a present tense cleansing from sin. And lest one think that one can have a genuine 'relationship' with God while living in unrepentant and uncleansed sin...

    "Nowby this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says 'I know Him', but does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him." 1 John 2:3-5.
    [[Note: Do folks honestly think that the Apostle John is teaching that one can have a saving 'relationship' with Christ without 'knowing' Him?? If so, I suggest those folks go back and re-read the entire epistle without any 'pre-conceived theological lenses'. ]]

    And this of course is perfectly consistent with the father's words in the parable of the Prodigal in which he characterizes he who was living in rebellion as being both 'lost' and 'dead' to him. If we don't continue to abide (or 'stand') by faith 'in the Vine' (Christ), we are in danger of being cut off and cast out as branches (John 15:6 and Romans 11:22).
    [ [Note--if we don't abide, we're cast out as branches and burned; we don't merely lose "rewards". (John 15:6) ]]

    "Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him" 1 John 3:6

    "He who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him." 1 John 3:24

    Which brings us back to the OP: Present tense forgiveness is contingent on our actually being in (abiding/standing/walking/etc) Christ, which includes keeping His commandments, and confessing our sins when we fail to do so (1 John 1:9) and repententing of those sins.
    [[Note: So unless one honestly thinks John and the other Scripture writers are teaching we can have a 'relationship' with Christ without actually being in Christ (abiding, etc), then any proposed dichotomy between relationship and fellowship doesn't exist]]
     
    #74 Doubting Thomas, Apr 5, 2007
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  15. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Excellent!

    Now I want to be more specific. Faith led Repentance and Confession until we get the actual answer from God.

    We should not take our own conjecture or imagination as the Answer from God, because God is real, not the creature by our own imagination. He actually answer to us, which change and transform our life style. Therefore we should continue to pray until we get the real answer from God. Our own guesswork cannot change our life style.

    Truly born-again believers and their belief, which is led by Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is the Personified God, not a kind of Energy or emotion.

    Forgiveness was purchased for ALL the people of the world by Jesus 2000 years ago. Read 1 John 2:2 ( not only for us but also for the world)
    The problem is because many people like Roman Catholic don't believe that all the sins were forgiven by His Blood of 2000 years ago. Such unbelief prevent the Grace from working for them.

    Yes, that's why I asked for the Real Answer from God.

    As for that issue, I don't like to be involved in there. For me I remain in the Bible expression itself as Romans 9-11. I don't expand from it.

    This issue is a little different from that, because the question is How God connect our today's sins with Jesus' Blood of 2000 years ago.
    This can be answered by and understood by only the people who had such experience, not by any theory or by any human Doctors who don't have any personal relationship with God.

    In the whole issues, at the end, you and I may agree on the doctrinal aspects. I am not saying any new things or new doctrines.

    What is different between you and me is about the practicing, not the doctrines. How to practice Confession to God and How to resolve our today's sin problem with the Blood of Jesus has been the question.

    Now, let me explain some of the points which may help us all to understand properly.

    Luke 9:23 "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me"

    Why did Jesus say this even before He took the Cross?
    Why do we have to take the Cross every day even after the Salvation?
    Isn't Cross related to resolving our sin problems?
    How can we carrhy Cross every day? Isn't it possible only when we believe in Jesus and regard Jesus' Cross as ours?

    Galatians 2:20

    I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.

    How could Paul say that he died with Jesus at the Cross? Isn't it by the Belied led by Holy Spirit?

    1 Cor 15:31
    I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

    Do you notice that Paul dies everyday, so that the new life in Jesus is revealed everyday?

    This is not irrelevant to our discussion again.

    2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.


    Otherwise, if we live slothful life, that's already a start of the sins.

    Finally I want to say to you that the connection of our today's sin to Jesus' Blood of 2000 years ago is done only by the Holy Spirit, because He will testify of Jesus ( John 15:26-27)
     
    #75 Eliyahu, Apr 7, 2007
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2007
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