what Would be the "Blessed Hope" IF jesus already has returned?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    what would be the Blessed Hope IF we no longer have his second coming to look forward too?
     
  2. Amy.G

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    There would be no hope.
     
  3. JesusFan

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    so ANY theology that has Him has already returned is Non Biblical?
     
  4. Amy.G

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    Absolutely!
     
  5. michael-acts17:11

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    Many of the prophecies attributed to Christ's return are actually fulfilled. The confusion comes from combining prophecies with Christ's return which Scripture does not place together, and from interpreting apocalyptic judgement language in a woodenly literal sense. Judgement language in the NT should be interpreted in light of their use in the OT.

    Daniel 9, specifically the 70th sevens, was fulfilled in 34AD & the NT apocalyptic language of judgement against Israel were fulfilled by 70AD. They have nothing to do with His return. Jesus gives us an incredibly clear description of His return in Matthew 13:24-51.

    The glorious hope is not that there will be a rapture of living saints. If that is the case, then the millions of believers who precede us in death died without hope. Our hope is founded on the person & finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice, which fulfilled the law, is the hope for all men, from Adam to the last born before Christ's return & recreation of the universe. Our hope is in the fact that He has already come & given us salvation through His own blood.
     
    #5 michael-acts17:11, Jan 4, 2012
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  6. JesusFan

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    If there is no literal physical resurrection for the saints from the dead, then we are all men most miserable, as being glorified in our physical bodies MUST occur in order to have our salvation process "completed"...
     
  7. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    What did I post that makes you think I don't believe in a literal physical resurrection when Christ returns? All peoples will be resurrected in the end, some to eternal life & some to eternal death.
     
  8. JesusFan

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    So you DO hold to more of an A Mil position?
    that jesus is ruling over earth spiritually, and will return some future time, to do a physical resurrection of saints/sinners at that time?

    Full pretierists deny that will happen!
     
  9. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    Interestingly, I turned away from dispensationalism before I had ever heard of preterism. Many years ago, I purchased books on hermeneutics with the thought of studying Scripture within its proper contexts apart from my previous personal, experiential & denominational influences & bias. I spent several months restudying the doctrines I had believed since my youth. The salvational doctrines proved to be firmly rooted in Scripture while the premil eschatology failed the context test.

    I guess I hold to a no mil position. The term "thousands" is used in figurative language in the OT. The book of the Revelation is written in the same figurative/apocalyptic language as the OT & should be interpreted as such.

    BTW, I was a devout fundamental baptist the first 25+ years of my life. Several months of studying the Word without the denominational blinders turned my former beliefs upside down. My past has inoculated me from ever interpreting Scripture in conformation to a particular system or denomination.
     
  10. JesusFan

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    Do you hold that jesus has already had his second coming, or do you still lok for it to be in Future?
     
  11. michael-acts17:11

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    It is yet future. When He returns, the angels will "reap" the lost & saved from the earth before He recreates creation anew. 70AD was a time of prophesied judgement; not a physical return of Christ. Neither God nor a preincarnate Christ rode into Egypt on a literal cloud of water vapor in Isaiah 19:1. It is the same figurative judgement language as Christ used in Luke. This is keeping with the literary & historical/cultural contexts. Being intimately familiar with the prophetic books, His immediate audience, the Israelites, would have understood the context as figurative judgement language & not as a ride on a cloud of water vapor.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

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    :thumbs: Yep! Exactly so! I owe you an apology, Michael; I had you down as an H.P.

    Steve
     
  13. beameup

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    `ab H1574 "darkness, cloud, thicket"
    translated in the AV as cloud 29, clay 1, thick 1, thickets 1
    No mention of "water vapor" in the context, except in your imagination.
    More like "a cloud of dust" - obvious reference to invading Assyrians
    brought by God as judgment against Egypt.
    Is 19:9 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord;
    and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.


    You know of course that the Pharaoh that elevated Joseph to P.M.
    was not an Egyptian, he was an Assyrian - a Semitic, like Joseph.
    That is why the Hebrews were given favorable status... until the
    Assyrian dynasty (delta) was overthrown by Middle Egypt (true Egyptians).
     
    #13 beameup, Jan 5, 2012
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  14. michael-acts17:11

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    So you believe that God Himself rode into Egypt on a cloud of dust to judge them, or that He was enveloped in darkness. That speaks volumes about the fidelity of your interpretational methods to the context of the text. I feel like I'm debating a first year seminary student. Do you not spend any time thinking through the conclusions of your interpretations before posting them? Seriously
     
  15. JesusFan

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    so he would be in the A Mil camp?
     
  16. beameup

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    Nonsense. I simply noted that your conclusion of cloud of water vapor was incorrect. Strong's concordance is your friend.

    This passage is typical Old Testament Hebrew massa' [utterance, oracle, "burden"] found throughout the O.T.
     
    #16 beameup, Jan 6, 2012
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  17. michael-acts17:11

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    And the Greek word for cloud is νεφέλη which simply means cloud or cloudiness. You're missing the obvious point that He did not & will not ride into Egypt or Israel on/in a cloud; no matter how you parse it. You're straining at gnats & swallowing the camel of false doctrine.
     
  18. Darrell C

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    Throughout the Gospels, one thing seems to come up often, which is the kingdom which God would establish to be ruled by Messiah.

    Despite direct teaching under the Lord, the disciples still looked for this kingdom to be established:



    Acts 1

    King James Version (KJV)



    Acts 1


    6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?



    Did the disciples understand that which Christ had spoken? That the kingdom of God was...within them?

    That doesn't appear to be the case, for here, as He said He would, Christ prepares to return to Heaven, they ask again, "Will you at this time...restore again the kingdom to Israel?"


    7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



    According to Christ, there will be a "time and a season" in which that which they ask will be fulfilled.

    To a certain extent I would agree, but we must remember that much is revealed in the New Testament that was before not revealed.

    Christ Himself was spoken of in the Old Testament, yet not one man can be shown that truly understood when Christ said "I will die."

    It is not just improbable, but impossible to see fulfillment of Daniel ch. 9 in the events of the first century.

    Daniel presents the Seventieth week as a whole...seven years, without a gap.


    Daniel 9

    24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.



    While we can work out how these things are fulfilled in Christ, we must take this as a whole.

    Who is this prophecy for? Israel.


    25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


    We see the first 69 weeks. Some theologians calculating their end upon the day of Christ's triumphal entry, though admittedly that is a convenient calculation to endorse one's positional views, so, I don't make too much of that.

    However, let's go on.


    26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


    That the "seven weeks" of v.25 are not mentioned, we see here that after the period of time of the 62 weeks which follow the seven, Messiah is cut off.

    Most will admit this speaks of the death of Christ. This is the view that I hold to. This negates the notion that the "first half" of the 70th week was the ministry of Christ, as He is cut off after the 62 week period.

    Therefore, the Seventieth Week must begin...after the death of Christ.

    Another notion I am in disagreement with concerning this verse is that "the prince that shall come is Christ," seeing this to be in contradiction with the fact that at this point, Messiah has already come. Could this be a reference to His return? That again is doubtful for it is highly improbable that "Christ's people" will destroy the city and the sanctuary, even if this is thought to speak of the fact that the Levitical Economy has been abrogated through Christ's ministry.

    If this spoke of the spiritual House of God, we would be led to believe that there is no "city" or "sanctuary," for we would have destroyed them.

    Furthermore, every use of this word by Daniel is in reference to what I view to be not just an historical fulfillment, such as Antiochus Epiphanes and Nero, but a reference to the coming Antichrist. And I do not think that to be coincidental on the part of the Holy Spirit.



    27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    And this verse probably stands alone in my belief in a literal seven year Tribulation.

    A covenant is confirmed for one week. The New Covenant established fby Christ is eternal. Here, when we view all that is said concerning the Tribulation period, we see that this "prince" is not Christ.

    Is it true that concerning the earthly service of the Law that Christ through fulfillment of the Law has "caused to cease" Levitical practice? Sure. But is Christ the Abomination that makes desolate?

    Absoluetly not.

    And shall we also see several decades within this week? Does the verse not speak of the final period of seven years? The first half where a covenant is embraced, the second in which sacrifice is halted?

    Christ does not make this temporary covenant, nor does He make either the covenant, sacrifice and oblation, nor the week...desolate.

    Christ spoke of this here:



    Matthew 24:15

    King James Version (KJV)

    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)



    ...and few would say that Christ spoke of Himself.

    In fact, He goes on to say...


    16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


    Paul failed to mention this in his teaching. Why, because he spoke of an event that is separate from that Christ teaches here.

    In Daniel, we see the abomination of desolation spoken of as occurring in the middle of the week. Christ also teaches similarly.

    When the abomination of desolation stands in the Holy Place...they are told to flee. Where are the Angels to gather the elect? Well, we must wait until the end of the week.


    17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:



    We would be hard pressed to see the gathering here. Christ does not instruct them to be comforted, as does Paul, but again...to flee,



    21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


    When does this take place? According to scripture...after the abomination which makes desolate appears, or, I should say...is revealed for who and what he is. He will stand in the Holy Place, the Temple of God, as also Paul taught:



    2 Thessalonians 2:4

    King James Version (KJV)

    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



    So, if we adhere to this...


    ...we will be forced to conclude that Daniel tells of a literal period of seven years that must be fulfilled. The description of events, though speaking of the same thing, is seen in the New Testament in an expanded and more informative manner.

    Included in that new revelation we are told more concerning Antichrist, the "prince" that is to come. He will seek to "stand in the Holy Place", which I believe will be a literal, rebuilt Temple in which those that still seek to approach God through Levitical practice will worship in.

    But only temporarily.

    Continued (for length, lol)...
     
    #18 Darrell C, Jan 8, 2012
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  19. Darrell C

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    34 & 70AD...agreed...lol.

    One point to consider is that nothing in the first century compares to the horrors perpetrated in the 20th century, so this...

    Matthew 24

    21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
    .


    ...must be taken to be hyperbole. And I just see this as being in need of being fulfilled just as the Lord said.

    The events in Revelation detail that which will in fact be worse than anything this world will ever see. The number of people that will die will be unmatched by any single period the world has eer, or will ever...see. Even when the enemies of God are destroyed after Satan is released from his 1000 year incarceration will not parallel this event. It could not, because the Lord clearly states that this time will be the worst.

    That they are not the same event, which would be a reasonable notion, really, can be seen through study of the passages. There will be similarities, to be sure, but the intervening Millennial Kingdom, promised to Israel and as of yet unfulfilled, denies this as a reasonable conclusion.




    I would agree. The question is...what do we do with Matthew 24?

    While the Lord speaks, I think, in a general sense concerning gathering, we cannot fit His instruction concerning those that experience the Tribuation He spoke of.

    He would not speak of the Angels gathering, and at the same time instruct them to flee.


    The funny thing is, this is exactly what the Thessalonians...thought.

    Paul speaks of Christ's return when comforting them. He does not instruct them to flee, for this event is instantaneous.



    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    King James Version (KJV)

    13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



    He does not instruct them to look for the abomination which makes desolate, but comforts them, instructing them concerning the Lord's return.




    Agreed 100%

    Agreed 100%

    Agreed 100%

    However, when we examine the passages that speak of the Lord's return, we see some dissimilarities.

    In one event, the Lord Himself gathers, while in the other...Angels do the gathering.

    In one event, they are told to flee, while in the other, we merely await.

    In one event, those taken are glorified, while in the other...they are judged.



    Titus 2:13

    King James Version (KJV)

    13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;



    While I do not view this as specifically a rapture verse, I will say that it is our "glorious hope" to await the coming of the Lord with anticipation. The daily life of this present world is contrasted to the glorious appearing of Christ, which I trust we all yearn for with great anticipation.

    God bless.
     
  20. Darrell C

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    Correction to this statement:



    Though I am sure there are those that would prefer the first...lol.

    God bless.
     

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