What's the difference between Fred and Frank?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Calvinists, please explain the clear distinction between Fred and Frank:

    Fred is a "normal" unbelieving young man who has never heard the gospel.

    Frank is a man who has been around God's revelations all his life and has chosen to continually rebel against Him. He has now "grown calloused" or "become hardened." (as spoken of in scripture Acts 28; Matt 13; Mark 4; John 12 etc)

    Now, according to Calvinism both Fred and Frank were born Totally Depraved, meaning they were born unable to willingly see, hear, understand and repent once confronted by the gospel. However, in all the passages listed above it clearly tell us what a man who has not grow hardened might be able to do:

    "For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'" Matt. 13

    So, Calvinists, please explain the difference in a man who is merely totally depraved and a man who has "become hardened/calloused" in light of these passages. Can both Fred and Frank willingly "see, hear, understand and turn" or can't they? Explain.
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    No,neither one will willing come to salvation unless God makes them willing psalm 110:3
    3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

    The verse you quote from Mt is speaking about the reprobate in Jesus day who were not the objects of God's grace.
    The saving truth of the doctrines of Grace have to be given to someone,or they will never be willing ,or understand.The passage you pull out is about apostate Israel who are already rejected by God Mt21:43
     
  3. Skandelon

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    How does this verse support that claim? Seems very vague and not at all related to what you seem to conclude from it.

    Even if it is the reprobate it doesn't explain why it would say what they might do if they hadn't grown hardened... "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

    Truth is that those Jews who are hardened are not the non-elect reprobates. How do I know? Because Paul believes that those who are temporarily hardened might come faith through envy of the Gentiles (Rm 11:14) and he believes they could leave their unbelief. Read it for yourself:

    The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
    Ingrafted Branches
    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    Keep quoting: 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

    Why would Jesus need to speak in parables to keep reprobates from turning and being healed? How might a totally depraved reprobate "see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and turn to be healed?"

    The parables keep them in the dark because the truth might set them free and they might believe and be saved. That is the purpose of the parables. Why? Because if they believe then they wouldn't crucify Jesus, so its not until Peter preaches to them in Acts 2 after Christ is raised up that he draws them to himself and 2000 are saved. These are not the reprobates of your system.

    So, someone needs to let Paul know because he is anticipating them to be provoked by envy and possibly leave their unbelief. They are hardened temporarily. (Rm. 11:25)
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    [QUOTEHow does this verse support that claim? Seems very vague and not at all related to what you seem to conclude from it.

    ][/QUOTE]

    Good question;
    This psalm is quoted from directly in the NT 6x
    Jesus used it himself speaking to apostate Jewish leaders and silenced them;
    They were apostates.Jesus silences them with this psalm. They were not made willing.....Jesus people are made willing;
    here are some links on the psalm;
    http://www.danielakin.com/wp-conten...0-the-great-king-priest-church-handout-ds.pdf
    http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/texts/ps110-list.html
    http://www.slusser.us/papers/Intertextuality paperweb.pdf
    here is John Gill
    Our LibraryCommentariesJohn Gill's Exposition of the BiblePsalmsPsalms 110Psalms 110:3
    Psalms 110:3
    Share this Psalms 110:3
    Thy people shall be willing in the day of that power.
    &c.] Or, in the day of thine army F19. When thou musterest thy forces, sendest forth thy generals, the apostles and ministers of the word, in the first times of the Gospel; when Christ went forth working with them, and their ministry was attended with signs, and miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost; and which was a day of great power indeed, when wonderful things were wrought; the god of this world was cast out, the Heathen oracles ceased, their idols were abolished, and their temples desolate; and Christianity prevailed everywhere. Or this may respect the whole Gospel dispensation, the day of salvation, which now is and will be as long as the world is; and the doctrine of it is daily the power and wisdom of God to them that are saved. Or rather this signifies the set time of love and life to every particular soul at conversion; which is a day for light, and a day of power; when the exceeding greatness of the power of God is put forth in the regeneration of them: and the people that were given to Christ by his Father, in the covenant of grace, and who, while in a state of nature, are rebellious and unwilling, are made willing to be saved by Christ, and him only; to serve him in every religious duty and ordinance; to part with their sins and sinful companions, and with their own righteousness; to suffer the loss of all things for him; to deny themselves, and take up the cross and follow him: and when they become freewill offerings to him, as the word F20 signifies; not only willingly offer up their spiritual sacrifices of prayer and praise, but themselves, souls and bodies, to him; as well as enter volunteers F21 into his service, and cheerfully fight his battles, under him, the Captain of their salvation; being assured of victory, and certain of the crown of life and glory, when they have fought the good fight, and finished their course. The allusion seems to be to an army of volunteers, such as described by Cicero F23, who willingly offered themselves through their ardour for liberty.

    In Romans 11..... well actually Paul quotes from Isa ...I think 15 or 17 times
    in chapters 9-15.....he is speaking of the physical nation as a whole being rejected except for a remnant according to the election of grace.....

    [QUOTE 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    ][/QUOTE]
    Isaiah did not say this, but I like the phrase election of grace
    The links give you alot to read and consider, take the time to look through and see more of what our King is doing in His Kingdom as the gospel conquers the unwilling and makes them willing in the day of His power.
     
  5. Skandelon

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    Are you going to engage with my replies or just quote large clips of scripture which we both believe support our relative views of this subject?
     
  6. glfredrick

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    Neither man is yet born-again in Christ. Fits perfectly within the bounds of Calvinism. Arminians have a problem with the scenario because one man has been exposed to the gospel, and purportedly, that should make him one of the ones that "God sees" and "elects." Except that it doesn't work that way.
     
  7. Ron Wood

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    There is no difference between Fred and Frank. Both are dead in sin, by nature children of wrath and do not seek after God. Fred will do exactly as Frank if he hears the Gospel and will not come to Christ that he might have life. Your question is denying the power of the Gospel. It assumes that both Fred and Frank are able to believe if they hear the Gospel with their ears. But the power of the Gospel isn't that it reaches the ears but that it reaches the heart. It can only do so when the Spirit sticks the finger of grace into the heart. Calvinism doesn't shut the door on any who desire to be saved it recognizes that only those who have been born of God will desire it. All who want it may come.
     
  8. Skandelon

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    Which according to Calvinists means that neither could see, hear, understand and repent, which clearly contradicts the verses I quote...you know the ones you didn't address.

    I don't even know what this means???
     
  9. Skandelon

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    Scripture indicates otherwise. There are clearly those who have "become hardened" and those who haven't as the verses I quoted prove.

    But what about when God seeks after them? Can they respond to his appeal to be reconciled?

    Actually, its Calvinists who deny the power of the gospel, because it is powerless UNLESS God first regenerates a man in your system. So the only power in you system is the effectual calling. The gospel in our system is what enables faith and respond. The gospel truely is the power of God unto salvation, not just a means for the elect to respond.

    Why would you assume otherwise? The appeal to be reconciled sent to whosoever will believe implies the ability to do just that. Only an explicit denial of that ability would cause one to believe otherwise.

    We believe the "finger of Grace" is the work of the Holy Spirit is inspiring, preserving and carrying the powerful gospel into all the world. You believe it is some extra secret inward working that is never expounded upon or clearly revealed in the text.

    Which is meaningless in a system where God determines the "wants" of man.
     
  10. Ron Wood

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    I will answer later tonight. I must go into work early today.
     
  11. convicted1

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    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    In the scenario you purposed, apparently Fred wasn't to this point, I guess.

    Pro. 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

    24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

    25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

    26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

    27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

    28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

    29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose]/U] the fear of the LORD:

    30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

    31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

    32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

    33But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

    In this scenario, Frank was in his state due to repeated rejection of God's call.


    Matt. 13:13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Here is what is getting lost in the "shuffle". God blinded their eyes and dulled their hearing so that He would be crucified. Do you evn think for one second that the Jews would have slayed their Saviour if they truly knew who He really was? But look at how quick the veil was removed from their eyes after Jesus' death.

    Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

    And I take what Jesus says over what man says EVERY TIME!!

    While our sweet Jesus was hanging on the cross, He said these words!!

    Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

    According to Jesus, they(Jews), did not know what they were really doing. I'll take His word for it!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #11 convicted1, Feb 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2011
  12. Martin Marprelate

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    And how exactly do you know this? It is God who decides who is 'hardened' and who isn't.

    In fact all this stuff was explained to you in some detail on another thread. Why do you feel the need to flog this particular dead horse?

    Steve
     
  13. Skandelon

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    I'm supposing it for the sake of discussion.

    Depends if you are talking about self hardening or judicial hardening, the difference of which I describe in more detail HERE.

    Well, brother, with all due respect, who died and made you the one who decides what horse has died and which ones were side stepped and dodged? By this standard I suppose we just need to shut down this entire board, because after all, haven't all these topics been "explained in some detail on another thread?" I think its clear why you would rather respond in this manner rather than just simply engage the topic.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

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    Well, I'm just wondering why you feel the need to post the same old stuff over and over again, knowing that you're going to get the same answers over and over again because they're the only answers that can be given.

    There are subject in theology other than the calvinism-Arminianism debate.

    Whom are you trying to persuade? Us? Or yourself?

    Steve
     
  15. Skandelon

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    Do me a favor. Find me the best answer to the question of the OP from other thread and link it or copy and paste it here and I'll show you why it either dodged the question or failed to adequately address it.

    I like discussing soteriology. Sue me.

    Trying to help the dozens of readers who visit this forum every day who might otherwise be mislead, as I once was. Any more questions or can you deal with the topic of the thread?
     
  16. quantumfaith

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    I for one, appreciate Skandelon's contributions.....over and over again. I am always interested in learning something new. :)
     
  17. InTheLight

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    Ditto for me as well.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

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    You have mentioned several times that you were once a Calvinist minister. I find this surprising since I am still not convinced that you really know what Calvinism is. FWIW, when I was saved, relatively late in life, I attended a broad evangelical church and became an Arminian by default; I knew nothing else. As I read the Bible, I became convinced of the Doctrines of Grace. In this, I am pleased to follow in the footsteps of Spurgeon.
    No, thank you. I was curious as to your motivation.
    I posted once on this topic on another thread, and then amplified my response at your request. Clearly, neither of these have satisfied you, so I don't suppose a third effort will do any better. Enjoy your horse-flogging.
    If there was something new in them there might be something interesting, but it seems to be the same old misunderstanding, endlessly repeated.

    Steve
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    Your ignoring the verses offered that answer your"replies" does not indicate you really want an answer.
    I am word centered and have no interest in your philosophical musings.
    The large clips of scripture[that you have no interest in] posted answer your wrong view of both romans 11 and your lack of seeing the importance of psalm 110.
    It is no wonder you as you say-- critique calvinism- because calvinism is word ,and Christ centered. When you turn from light you go toward darkness.
    Continuing to turn away from scripture only hardens someone.
     
  20. Skandelon

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    But your silent assumption that these verses actually answer the questions is call begging the question, because it assumes the very premise up for debate.

    When presenting a verse one must argue how that verse supports their premise, otherwise it will be taken in the way that I've always interpreted it, which is in support of my premise.

    .Then don't reply to my posts. Have a great day!
     

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