What's the point?

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Meatros, May 12, 2003.

  1. Meatros

    Meatros
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    I've been debating pretty much on both sides of the fence about the question of evolution v. creation for several years now (I'm fairly certain most of you have too-at least on one side or the other).

    However recentally I have come to realize what might be an inescapable revelation about the two sides (perhaps it just takes me longer to realize such common things).

    According to Dawkins, who writes about Wise (who is perhaps the most esteemed creationist out there) the following is perhaps true:
    What does this mean for the Christian? I don't honestly know. I'm going to speculate that the theistic evolutionist paradigm is going to increase in it's adherents, while the Young Earth Creationists (the literal people) will decrease as the evidence becomes more and more accessible to the public (primarily because no one wants their God to be a 'liar'). Eventually the YEC paradigm will fall into such small numbers that it will be held by aproximately the same amount of people who still hold to geocentricism.

    Of course I, and the majority of science could be wrong, in which case a sever paradigm shift could occur-destroying some now fundamental theories in science. The result may or may not mean the increase of YEC (depending entirely on what the new paradigm is).

    However seeing as neither of these events are likely to happen anytime soon (that is YECs aren't fading away and mainstream science isn't experiencing a paradigm shift), I have to ask:
    What's the point? I don't think anyone on either side of the coin is changing their minds. I certainly haven't convinced anyone one way or another (depending on which side of the coin I was currently on).

    So what's the point? I don't think Jesus particularly cares, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior (John 3:16) you will go to heaven, despite the questions to your sincerity (as Bobryan has tried to question). In the end, all of this petty squabbling is actually distracting our attention away from Jesus and away from the message of our salvation. It causes a line in the sand to be formed. An 'us' vs. 'them' mentality of inferiority. 'They' can not be Christian because they believe differently then I. 'They' can not be intellectually honest (or what have you) because they believe differently then I.

    A belief in evolution is not going to keep you out of heaven, just as a belief in creation is not your ticket *in to* heaven. All it seems like we are doing is engaging in a shoving match and ignoring the bibles 'golden rule' of love thy neighbor as you would love thyself.


    You are free to debate anything I brought up in this post, but all I'm really interested in is this:

    What's the point of arguing?
     
  2. john6:63

    john6:63
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    As I said before this topic could divide Christianity and it seems that it has already started. I talked with my Pastor the other day about this exact topic and he told me that he has had to write numerous letters to seminary schools. Some, not all, are starting to instruct their students that it is ok to take some parts literal , but not others, as long as you have faith.

    This is very dangerous. The Holy Sprit didn’t goof-up when the authors pinned the scriptures. The Bible isn’t really hard to understand. I don’t need science to explain to me what the Holy Sprint really meant. Before I study or read the Bible, I pray to God that He may open my heart and mind so that I may better understand His word and how I may use it to better my life. The obvious difference between you and I, is that I take the Bible as verbally inspired, without error, and infallible in all its affirmations.

    Why is not taking the Bible literal or teaching some parts of the Bible isn’t literal? What will happen is you will get a person that is “riding” the fence so to speak, concerning his faith in Christ. He will then surf across “Reasons to Believe” website and after he’s done with this site he’s an atheist. How? B/C he’s just been told that a God that has infinite wisdom and power couldn’t have possibly created the earth in 6 literal days. Instead he allows science to contradict His power. Now this poor fellow is lost, b/c now he really starts to question his faith and the rest of the Bible. Well if God couldn’t create in 6 literal days, how could he raise Jesus from the dead? So now he surfs over to an atheist website and he’s convinced that religion was just made up from man to control man.

    God sternly warns against this.

    (II Peter 3:3-6) ” Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished”

    (Romans 1:18-23) “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”

    My note to science teachers willing teaching evolution:
    (Mat 18:6) “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”

    This may not seem to be a serious issue to some who have a strong faith, but it is very dangerous to those that maybe struggling with theirs, as well as those who have faith and they are told not to take certain parts of the Bible literally, b/c science says it’s not possible.

    It’s amazing that some still can’t see this! The devil isn’t in hell folks, he’s right here on the face of this earth deceiving and being quite successful. “I’m a Christian, he’s not deceiving me!” The devil works overtime on us Christians. It really saddens me when I talk to someone who used to have a relationship with Christ, but now doesn’t b/c of science. It saddens me.
     
  3. Helen

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    I am here for two reasons:

    to present the truth of what the data is showing in science,

    and

    to encourage fellow Christians in their faith, so they know they have, here also, a reason to believe and an answer for the hope we all have in Christ.

    The evolutionists simply give me a stage for that.

    Judging from the emails I have gotten through the years, my efforts are not in vain. So as long as the Lord keeps giving me a heart for this, I will be here.
     
  4. Paul of Eugene

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    To me, the point is simple. People who are seeking answers will be looking here. It would be wrong to let them down by not giving them what they are looking for.
     
  5. Meatros

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    I'm figuring you are not calling into question my faith in God/Jesus, but I might as well clear things up-if there is any doubt.

    When I said 'riding the fence' I meant the fence that is creationism and theistic evolution. I did not mean my faith in God or in Jesus as the savior. That conviction has never faultered in me, no matter which paradigm I've been at in any point in my life.
    Personally, the question of creation/evolution doesn't matter in my spiritual life. For me to focus on it draws my attention away from the teachings of Jesus, rather then towards it. This is at both ends of the spectrum mind you. I've only recentally found that the theistic evolutionary paradigm is just as distracting as the Young Earth Creationist paradigm. Calling out in others their lack of knowledge of either faith or science has only produced hostilities in the other party-which has never been my intention.

    I think this Message Board (among others) has finely illustrated the split between Christians. Neither side is treating the other with the love Jesus commanded (IMO). Therefore both sides IMO are wrong as both sides take the focus off of the issue of salvation and place the issue on the petty squabbling on whether God created the world in 6 days or not. I'm not claiming to be better mind you, in fact I am probably worse then a majority since I have participated on both sides at one time or another and for extended periods. It's only been recentally that I've realize the extent that this subject doesn't matter.

    The literalists will say that the faithful will somehow lose faith (a slippery slope)because of science and the non-literalists will say that the accuracy of science will lose it's accuracy (another slippery slope). Both of these sides are IMO nonsense. If someone's faith can be reduced to requiring proof of God's word and the necessity of the scientific accuracy of the bible, then how can it be honestly called faith? By the same token, the First Amendment separates church and state and as such scientists need not worry about the interference of the literalist. Also science depends on the open mind and the fundamentals of science will always double check a theory to ensure that what is known is indeed what is known. It's not static and never will be. There are of course exceptions to both of these which I do not mean to gloss so quickly over, but I must.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Evolution is merely a myth for adults who reject the Gospel. It is doomed from the start. The Christians who foolishly assume they can marry it to God's Word - will see in time that such a mythology is as internally self-conflicted as BOTH the atheist and Christians have been saying it is.

    The Atheists will all become Christians at the 2nd coming.

    The scientific evidence that evolutionists seek to cover up will simply leak out in 1000 different forms, and that house-of-cards will collapse.

    In every case - whenever the Bible is challenged NEW discoveries ALWAYs support God's Word as literally true.

    Darwin had to admit that he had only "speculation" to back him up and hoped that the fossil evidence would one day "support him". Today - it is overwhelmingly in favor of the Christian. Stephen J Gould's "punctuated equillibrium" is specifically a "confession" of the same though evolutionists are loathe to admit the obvious (again).

    However their practice of "ignoring the obvious" is doomed to failure - for time is against them.

    Why then should we not just "wait" for their system to collapse under it's own weight of falsehood??

    Because - an ever increasing number are turning from darkness to light. Because "it is working" even now.

    Bob
     
  7. Meatros

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    Bobryan, this thread isn't about evolution or creation being 'correct', please don't pervert it into that direction as that's not the point of this thread.
     
  8. Baptist Believer

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    But it does not have to divide Christianity at all…

    I certainly don’t think it is okay to interpret the Bible any way you want “as long as you have faith” – that’s foolish. Instead, the Bible needs to be carefully interpreted so that the parts that are intended to be taken literally need to be interpreted literally and the parts intended not to be taken literally are not taken literally. In theory, it’s a simple principle that most believers can agree upon, but in practice, it is much more difficult.

    I’ve noticed that a lot of people don’t seem to recognize that God put his written message to humanity in the form of literature. Moreover, it is a very mixed collection of literature that includes allegory, poetry, narrative, parable, letters, and an apocalypse. Each of these literature types needs to be understood so that the truth contained in the words of the message can be understood properly.

    No one is making this allegation.

    Actually, parts of it are very difficult to understand. The apostle Peter had difficult with Paul’s letters… why should we expect everything to be obvious for us?

    I hope no one is alleging this, although I’ve had creationists and evolutionists both try to explain away what the Bible actually says and doesn’t say.

    Excellent!

    I don’t understand your first sentence, but I think the gist of your thought is that a person who does not take all of the Bible “literally” is not committed fully to Christ. That’s nonsense. There are a number of places where the Bible is not to be taken literally.

    This seems profoundly farfetched to me… No one has said that God does not have the power to create the earth in 6 days.

    Not only is this argument build from a false premise, but it is also a faulty deduction. Holding to 6 literal days of creation is not the same thing as an inability to perform miracles.

    If someone can toss away his faith this mindlessly and easily, they never had saving faith at all. At least this hypothetical person now knows he is not a true believer instead of finding out at the last judgment.

    Of course you’re ignoring that fact that some of us who believe the Bible is completely trustworthy and who are not evolutionists do not believe that Genesis 1 and 2 are to be interpreted literally because the text itself indicates that it is not.

    That’s right, the evil one is working in religious systems by perverting the gospel through unnecessarily additions to what is required to have saving faith in Christ and to be a faithful Christian.

    But science isn’t really the culprit here…

    Unfortunately most Christians do not know how to think Christianly and approach the great issues of contemporary thinking. We are rapidly moving from a modernist perspective to a post-modern perspective (primarily because of the bankruptcy of modernism’s ability to speak to the issues of faith). From what I have seem, fundamentalism, classic liberalism, creation scientism, and secular scientism are all holding on to failed modernistic concepts of reason and “proofs” and ignoring (or even rejecting) the post-modern opportunities to speak to issues of faith as something quite apart from rationalism. While faith and reason must coexist, the two are not mutually exclusive nor necessarily at war with each other.

    Furthermore, most Christians are reading the Bible through a modernist, rationalistic lens and trying to systematize God and His actions instead of taking their cue from the nature of the written word and the presence of the Living Word.

    But that’s a discussion for another thread at another time. :D
     
  9. The Galatian

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    The truth is, even if you don't accept evolution, God is not sending you to Hell for it.

    There are good Christians on both sides of the issue. This is one of those man-made doctrinal fracases that serve only to divide and impair God's Church. This issue has nothing to do with one's salvation.

    Those people who are preaching otherwise are not doing God's work, to say the very least.
     
  10. Johnv

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    ...the Bible needs to be carefully interpreted so that the parts that are intended to be taken literally need to be interpreted literally and the parts intended not to be taken literally are not taken literally. In theory, it’s a simple principle that most believers can agree upon, but in practice, it is much more difficult.

    Truer words were never spoken!!
    [​IMG]
     
  11. john6:63

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    What verses indicate this? Is this just you're theory or is this what is being taught in Sunday schools now? The Bible I have doesn't have a disclaimer that indicates how to take the Bible as literal or not.

    Some people claim that the opening chapter of Job, where God and satan are having a conversation is "folklore." I don't agree. Any comments?

    Did God really foresake Jesus on the cross or is this a misinterpretation from Aramaic to Greek? Any thoughts?

    [ May 12, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: john6:63 ]
     
  12. Baptist Believer

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  13. john6:63

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    Genesis 1 is an outline
    Genesis 2 focuses more on man leading up to the fall of man in chapter 3.

    I don’t see how this can be confusing to some, but aparently it is.

    This is the problem. Too many people trying to explain the Bible. I like the Holy Sprits version just fine.
     
  14. Johnv

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    Getting to the "point" of the topic, which is, "what's the point", there's certainly nothing wrong with discussing the topic. But it's not a doctrinal issue, and certainly not a salvific one, so there's no need for mudslinging that goes on regarding the issue. I'm amazed that we can discuss differences in doctrinal issues pretty soundly, but this one issue really seems to push buttons, especially in regards to namecalling and defamation.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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    Yes, I’ve heard that… It sounds good too. The only problem is that Genesis 1 and 2 “literally” conflict. I’ve already told you one of the obvious places, but apparently the facts are not what is important here.

    I’m not confused – I’m paying attention to the text. A person who believes the Bible should do that.

    This is the problem. Too many people trying to explain the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]You’re also trying to explain the Bible. Do you consider yourself the final authority on the meaning of the scriptures?

    I do too.

    The Holy Spirit inspired the text that I study and has guiding me in interpretation. The Spirit is not likely to guide someone to believe something not in the text.
     

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