When did Heaven and Earth pass Away

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Jul 25, 2011.

  1. Logos1

    Logos1
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    "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law and the Prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled". [Matthew 5:17-18]

    So either we are still living under the old Mosiac law or the term “heaven and earth” does not refer to the destruction of the cosmos. In fact heaven and earth refers to the old covenant, the Mosiac law, the way Jewish society was organized around the temple and laws given to Moses.

    The verses above tell us that until all the Old Covenant passes away that none of the Old Covenant can pass away. Obviously since part of the Old Covenant has passed all of it has passed away and since the cosmos hasn’t been destroyed the term heaven and earth can’t mean the earth will be destroyed.

    And, when did it pass away. 70 AD of course. Christ said all things would be fulfilled to the current generation he was speaking to in Luke 21:32.

    I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all things take place.

    Combine this with all the time statements regarding Christ’s return which all say soon. Not a single one says a long time in the future, nor a future generation, nor is there any mention about rapturing away anybody before his return.

    Put all these things together and you have indisputable, obvious, and certain assurance that Christ came back and the event that destroyed the Law was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD that destroyed the temple and ended the Jewish way of life as they knew it and ushered in the New Covenant—the New Jerusalem in Revelation.

    This puts Christ’s return at 70 AD which fully ushered in the New Covenant and so brought in the New Jerusalem. The old covenant—heaven and earth passed away at that time.
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    LOL. :tongue3:

    And since AD 70 we've all lived happily ever after in the kingdom of righteousness and the New Jerusalem.
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    i posted this in the other one....John Owen



    Here is what he says:


    "On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-

    '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judgment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of the Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.

    '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.

    First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (John Owen on Second Peter)From Owen Vol.9 p.134
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Dr,Bob,
    I am not a prophecy expert. I do think we are in the Kingdom now...with Christ ruling in the midst of His enemies;

    How do you view these verses from psalm 110....does your millenial view have an abundance of enemies in the "earthly millenial rule"

    I used to believe and was taught that unsaved persons reproduce and at the very end...the unsaved rebel one final time.

    Then I wondered....how do they mask their sin and rebellion with God himself on earth? Are they able to mortify sin better than we can with the indwelling Spirit? How do you view the Rod of iron rule?

    maybe these are seperate threads,lol

    Do I have to call you a bad name now, so this will be an official BB post:thumbsup: :laugh:
     
  5. kyredneck

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    ....oh, along 'bout the same time this happened:

    And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26:19

    And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28:23
     
  6. JesusFan

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    is this a trick question, I wonder?

    As the Bible states that this will happen after the rule/reign of jesus upon the Earth at His Second Coming, and will be when He gives up His Kingdom up to God His Father , and at that time God will "be in all"

    We will have a New Jerusalem of all those who have been redeemed by grace of God...


    Per the Bible, assuming Jesus returned while typing this, would be at least a thousand years from now!
     
  7. kyredneck

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    Do you think the passages in post #5 are 'trick' verses?

    Did the Jews' heaven & earth become iron & brass because of their disobedience or not?
     
  8. thomas15

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    You have an either/or situation that quite possibly isn't valid. This is what happens when you accept as fact the covenants of works, redemption and grace, covenants not found in the Bible and then proceed to build your theology around them.
     
  9. lastday

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    The End of Time

    Thomas,
    Please note that Logos considers the End of Time as being a reference to AD 70 rather than to the time when the "last one who must be killed has been killed". Logos cannot accept that the End of "All things" requires the death of the last saint. The saints are still being killed and the End of all things predicted by Jesus will not be in the near future nor be fulfilled as long as "those who have been killed continue to rest a short time" and God says: "It is Finished". This decree will not occur unto the last Saint has been killed!

    Read Rev.7:9-17 and Rev.16:9-17 wherein God allows those who kill the saints to continue killing them until armies from the EAST invade Israel and Christ appears suddenly (soon and quickly) IN PERSON to destroy all the wicked. Before Christ appears at the END, the Last Martyr must be killed!!

    Jesus is NOT coming, as He promised in Rev.16:15, until Rev.7:9-15 has been fulfilled!!!
    Mel at www.lastday.net
     
    #9 lastday, Jul 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2011
  10. JesusFan

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    Which "saint" though would be last one to get killed ?

    Those who were raptured before Great tribulation period?
    Those who were alive and going into the Millinual kingdom at Jesus Second Coming?
     
  11. preacher4truth

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    Oh yes, isn't this wonderful? How refreshing this new heaven and earth, all this wherein righteousness dwells.

    It's like pulling teeth to get these to admit they DON'T get the date 70 A.D. from the Scriptures, as several here have claimed, then when asked to prove it, well, they went and had a shovel-sized scoop of peanut butter since!

    :thumbsup: :laugh: :wavey:
     
  12. Logos1

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    Would you be suggesting the New Jerusalem is suppose to be heaven—there are no verses in the bible to support such a suggestion—however the verses around the New Jerusalem do speak of the Old Covenant passing away. Seems trying to make it into heaven without scriptural support is a bit of a stretch.
     
  13. Logos1

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    "We will have a New Jerusalem of all those who have been redeemed by grace of God."

    Most perceptive—it’s called the New Covenant. You get a gold star today. Keep up the good work.
     
  14. Logos1

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    You must have meant to post this in a different thread since there was no mention of these covenants in my opening remarks. I forgive you for obvious mistake. No harm done.
     
  15. Logos1

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    It's always a pleasure Mel!!

    The bible makes no reference to the end of time. Don’t let those spreading rumors sucker you in on that one.

    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Why thank you Mel!
     
  16. Logos1

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    Even when I don’t see the relevance between your answer and the original post I always enjoy the animated smiley faces! Some of us post and some of us do smiley faces—it takes all kinds to make the BB go round.
     
  17. preacher4truth

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    The relevance of my answer to the OP is in an, um, "invisible" and "spiritual" sense.

    70 A.D. not being in the Scriptures as you preterists make claim? That part was "literal" and "physical" and easy to be seen in my reply.

    :thumbsup:
     
    #17 preacher4truth, Jul 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2011
  18. HankD

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    They haven't, I just looked and they are still there.

    HankD
     
  19. JesusFan

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    To be more accurate here...

    the new Covenant is the MEANS by which Christians get placed into the new jerusalem to come down from heaven and forever rest upon New earth, at end of the Age, when there IS literally a new heavens and earth, as God is in all fully once again!
     
  20. lastday

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    The End of the Age

    Logos, as usual, in regard to the End of Time, you sidestep the main issue by denying that Jesus taught the "End" of the Age will take place after the "times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled". Matt.24:3; Luke 21:24. The end of these "times" will occur when Christ comes to deliver Israel from their oppressors as armies from the EAST (not Rome) invade Israel and kill the
    last of the Saints "who must be killed" BEFORE He comes to redeem Israel.

    Jesus did not place the end of Gentile TIMES at AD 70 but showed that the
    destruction of Jerusalem, together with the continuing "wrath" upon the Jews, was just the "beginning of sorrows"! Evidence for the "days of
    vengeance" continuing to the present day is not contestable!! You simply
    ignore the evidence by declaring the Old Covenant passed away in AD 70
    rather than at the Cross!!! Mel at www.lastday.net
     

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