When did the Church begin?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Oct 12, 2007.

  1. Salty

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  2. Allan

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    :laugh: LOL :laugh:

    Now THAT was funny!


    Kinda hard to be a church of called out believers if you don't yet believe who He said He was and what He will do.
    Secondly, they were not baptized believers, but if you want to assume the baptism of John was suffienct then you must answer why did not ALL of the other disciples become baptized as well.

    But these are just some of MANY problems with making the assumption there was a church BEFORE The Death and Resurrection of Christ AND the imparting of the INDWELLING Holy Spirit. ALL of which are NECESSARY in the creation of the Church.
     
    #2 Allan, Oct 12, 2007
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  3. tinytim

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    Then why did Jesus say, "upon this rock I WILL build my church" ?

    He should have said, "upon this rock I have built my church."
     
  4. Salty

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    Tim, maybe thats just the KJV translation:laugh:
     
  5. Allan

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    I'm pretty sure the above was only said in jest, so I am putting this here for those who might actaully believe you were serious.
     
  6. Tom Butler

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    Actually, there are very view problems with the concept of Jesus' establishing his church during his earthly ministry.

    The baptism of John was sufficient. Jesus submitted to John's baptism to identify with his ministry and to set an example. We know that two of the 12 were baptized by John, and probably all of them. John's gospel was the same gospel Jesus preached.

    The contention that the Holy Spirit was necessary for the creation of the church is an assumption demanded by dispensationalism, but not from scripture. Jesus was present with the disciples. He gave them all the power they had. As he prepared to leave, he told them to wait for the coming of the HS to empower them.

    But in John 14, he also said to them "Receive ye the Holy Spirit." Before Pentecost.

    The simple question is, what did they have on Pentecost that they did not have before? Seems to me that the scriptures cited in the Landmark url ought to mean something. Allan, why don't you take their points one by one and try to show that they're wrong?
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    Let me throw a little wrinkle in the mix.

    Act 7:38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    Rom 11:24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

    What was John baptizing them in to??

    Are we living under the Grace covenant??

    Me thinks you are to simple about the church.
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Oct 12, 2007
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  8. Zenas

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    The Church began at Pentecost.

    1. The gospels don't mention the establishment of a church, except in the future. If there had been a church before the cross surely Luke, who told us nearly everything about the early church, would have mentioned it in his gospel.

    2. Only Matthew mentions the church, once in Ch. 16 and twice in the same verse in Ch. 18.

    Allan, this is a little off topic, but I think it is very likely that Jesus baptized His disciples. See John 3:22 where He was spending time with them and He was baptizing.
     
  9. Allan

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    I think we establieshed a few months ago that is subjective, when we last discussed this :)

    If it was suffient why did Jeuss change it?
    If it was suffient why did Paul rebaptize those whom John Baptized?
    Jesus submitted to John's Baptism to identify Himself with the ministry John Baptism proclaimed was coming. It fulfilled all righteousness that He would be set apart through baptism of the and to the minstry which came after and in conjunction with John's.

    We know 2 were baptized by John, anything more is assumption and pure speculation with no evidence to substaniate it.
    Not true at all. That is probably the oddest statment I have heard regarding this subject. The contention that the Holy Spirit was necessary for the creation of the Church is based upon the promise of that after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection He would come and never leave us since He is the seal and the earnest of all believers.

    Yep, even Judas the betrayer/unsaved.
    Yes, He did. And did they receive the Holy Spirit at the moment Christ said 'receive'. Scripture states no such thing, but that Christ breathed on them (much like the wind that came upon them at Pentacost). But If the Spirit of God DID come into them, the you have just prove Jesus to a liar. For did He or did He not state that the Spirit of God WILL NOT COME or be GIVEN to them (in an indwelling manner) until He FIRST leave. I believe it does.

    A Savior that died and was Resurrected, who sent forth The Spirit of Promise unto them. Till Christ's death, thier sins remained because no blood was given to remove it. Therefore they were not yet justified in the sight of God the Father and could not be Spirit filled either. That is alot NOT to have yet. But it is all that makes us the Church.

    It does mean something, just that they need to go back and look at the scriptures again :laugh: Ok, bad joke.

    But seriously, you can not have the Church/Bride of Christ unless Christ has died and Risen again. It is His righteousness we wear (our linen clean and white which was give us), AND by His death we are justifed, and our sins REMOVED by the shedding of His blood. Until His assention we had no mediator, and so on and forth. The Church is not born until after Christ died, rose again, assended unto the Father and then Spirit of God was sent forth.
     
  10. Allan

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    No wrinkle Brother Bob.

    The Greek word 'church' has more than one meaning than Christ's Church.
    It is used in scripture for a general assembly, a pagan assembly, a Church assembly.

    The 'Church in the Wilderness' simply refers to the assembly of people whom God called out of Egypt. Now Bob, do you believe every person that was called out Egypt with Moses was saved? If not then the meaning of assembly is not Christ's Church but a general assembly, since they by context could not be pagan.
     
    #10 Allan, Oct 12, 2007
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  11. Allan

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    I don't deny that 'likelyhood'. I simply said it must be assumed since there is no scriptural evidence for it.
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    Rom 11:24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

    How do you fit this into the day of Penecost???

    Are we under the Grace Covenant??

    The same Greek word for the church then and now.
    ekklēsia
     
    #12 Brother Bob, Oct 12, 2007
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  13. Allan

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    With no problem.
    You are still assuming the Church was in the OT. But it was not. The Church is NT, period.

    Check the transations of many other bibles you will find them showing the words "congregation' or 'assembly', and these are accurate translations from the Greek word, especially in light of the fact the Church is strictly NT.

    BTW - Look up each instance of Greek word "ekklēsia" and see if it fits you ascribed meaning each time. Or I can give you places where it means pagan assembly, and general assembly (like a common gathering).

    Edited In that the above is a quote.
     
    #13 Allan, Oct 12, 2007
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  14. Brother Bob

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    Can't you see there is just "One" true tree and its the same "Tree" they were cut off from and we were grafted in to??

    Ok Allan, I will let you all get back to your discussion, thanks.

    BBob,
     
  15. Allan

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    The Church is not Judism continued and enlarged although there is a continutiy between the redeemed of all ages. We find that the Church, is a "New Man" (Ehp 2:15)

    Church - "ekklēsia" can mean:
    1. Assembly of Jewish people (example Acts 7:38)
    2. A Heathen Assembly (example Acts 19:32, 39, 41)
    3. Body of Christ (examples Col. 1:18)
    4. the Local Assembly (example 1 Cor 1:2)
     
  16. Allan

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    I understand what you are saying, but you are viewing it as from individuals and not from a national standpoint. As I showed int he previous quote: "Paul is not talking about salvation of individual Christians, but the position of Jews and Gentiles as peoples in the program of God."
    Which is the whole context of Chapters 9-11.

    No problem Brother Bob. Enjoy your day.
     
    #16 Allan, Oct 12, 2007
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  17. Chessic

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    I guess I don't get the fuss on this one. As far as I am concerned, the church was started when Jesus had His first follower. Once He had a follower, he had a body of believers. This first follower may or may not have been the first Apostle called. It may have been Mary; it may have been an Old Testament prophet; it may have been Adam and Eve, especially after the talk of biting heals and their "seed" crushing heads.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    I would like to ask one more question if you don't mind.
    Do you all believe that Christ's blood covered all those who died in faith believing, who lived under the OT, when He died on the cross??
     
  19. TCGreek

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  20. rbell

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    My favorite:

    Now THAT'S the true test of "church or not!" Have you had a business meeting? (I'm sure it was on the 1st Wednesday night of the month, too!) :D
     

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