When did the regenation take place?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Daniel David, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Consider Matthew 19:28
    And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    When did this happen? Will an amill step up and answer?
     
  2. Watchman

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    Excellent question DD, I too look forward to amill's answering that. No doubt they will attempt to "spiritualize" it some how.
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    bump

    Where are the amills?
     
  4. KenH

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    John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

    Matthew 19:28

    And Jesus said unto them…
    To all the disciples whom Peter represented;

    verily I say unto you:
    the thing being something very considerable, and of great moment, Christ uses the asseveration he sometimes does in such cases:

    that ye which have followed me.
    Christ does not deny that they had forsaken all for his sake, nor does he despise it, because it was but little they left, though he does not repeat it; but only takes notice of their following him, which, including their faith in him, their profession of him, and subjection to him, was a much greater action, and of more importance that the other, and therefore is only mentioned, and which our Lord confirms:

    in the regeneration.
    This clause is so placed, that it may be read in connection with the preceding words, and be understood of the disciples following Christ in the regeneration; meaning, not the grace of regeneration, in which they could not be said, with propriety, to follow Christ; and one of them was never a partaker of it: but the new state of things, in the church of God, which was foretold, and is called the time of reformation, or setting all things right, which began upon the sealing up the law, and the prophets, and the ministry of John the Baptist, and of Christ; who both, when they began to preach, declared, that this time, which they call the kingdom of heaven, was at hand, just ushering in. Now the twelve apostles followed Christ herein: they believed, and professed him to be the Messiah; they received, what the Jews called, his new doctrine, and preached it to others; they submitted to the new ordinance of baptism, and followed Christ, and attended him wherever he went, working miracles, preaching the Gospel, and reforming the minds and manners of men. Now this new dispensation is called the regeneration, and which more manifestly took place after our Lord's resurrection, and ascension, and the pouring down of the Spirit; wherefore the phrase may be connected with the following words,

    when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory in the
    regeneration;
    not in the resurrection of the dead, or at the last judgment, but in this new state of things, which now began to appear with another face: for the apostles having a new commission to preach the Gospel to all the world; and being endued with power from on high for such service, in a short time went every where preaching the word, with great success. Gentiles were converted, as well as Jews, and both brought into a Gospel church state; the ceremonies of the old law being abolished, were disused; and the ordinances of baptism, and the Lord's supper, every where practised; old things passed away, and all things became new: agreeably to this the Syriac version renders the phrase, (atdx amleb) , "in the new world"; and so the Persic. The Arabic reads it, "in the generation", or "age to come"; which the Jews so often call the world, or age to come, the kingdom of the Messiah, the Gospel dispensation.

    When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,
    or glorious throne; as he did when he ascended into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God; and was then exalted as a prince, and made, or declared to be Lord and Christ; and was crowned in human nature, with honour, and glory, and angels, principalities, and powers, made subject to him:

    ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones:
    for though Judas fell from his apostleship, yet Matthias was chosen in his room, and took his place, and made up the number twelve; a metaphorical phrase, setting forth the honour, dignity, and authority of their office and ministry, by which they should be

    judging the twelve tribes of Israel;
    doctrinally and practically; by charging them with the sin of crucifying Christ, condemning them for their unbelief, and rejection of him, denouncing the wrath of God, and the heaviest judgments that should fall upon them, as a nation, for their sin; and by turning from them to the Gentiles, under which judgment they continue to this day. So the doctors among the Jews are represented as sitting and judging others: of "the potters", in (1 Chronicles 4:23) they say F12,


    ``these are the disciples of the law, or the lawyers, for whose sake the world is created, (anyd le Nybtyd) "who sit in judgment", and establish the world; and build, and perfect the ruins of the house of Israel.''


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FOOTNOTES:

    F12 Targuru in 1 Chron. iv. 23.

    - http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=mt&chapter=019&verse=028&next=029&prev=027
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    While this is very interesting, Paul spoke of the regeneration in Romans 8 as well as a future event. Now, Paul was already participating in what Gill is expressing.

    Next.
     
  6. KenH

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    Yes, Paul was. Glad to see you are finally beginning to understand a bit. There may be hope for you yet, buddy. [​IMG]
     
  7. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    I have ALWAYS stated that the kingdom is already here. What I am suggesting is that an aspect of it is yet future.
     
  8. Daniel David

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    Well, can no amill answer?
     
  9. Bro. James

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    "Even so, come, Lord Jesus".

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  10. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Hmmm...

    I didn't see this thread until now. Interesting thought DD.

    The first question is,"what is the regeneration?"

    Matthew never clearly weighs in in favor of an earthly messianic or millenial kingdom, but verses like this do suggest it.

    I think the point of this verse pertains to the thrones. As in Matthew 5, he who is lowly here will be great in heaven. The 12 have suffered here on earth but will sit on thrones in the kingdom of Heaven. Compare this to Luke 22:30.

    This also brings to mind Revelation 3. In each letter Jesus says, "to him who will do this I will give that." The gifts (like not being blotted out of the book of life) are not really gifts but more like reiterations of prior promises. Specifically in verse 21, "to him that overcometh I will grant to sit with Me in My throne..."

    I don't think the focus of this verse relates to the particulars of the "palingenesia" but rather to Jesus' promise to the 12.
     
  11. Daniel David

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    Charles, don't dodge the issue. When did the regeneration take place?

    You can't just gloss over specific details in the promise because of your preconceived notions.
     
  12. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    DD,

    Wow you must have been lurking around!

    I see the "regeneration" as pertaining to the heavenly kingdom. As for specifics - Matthew doesn't give any. That should be a clue that this is not the focus ofthe passage.

    Basically what Jesus is saying is that here on earth you'll be persecuted but in glory you'll sit on thrones next to me. I do NOT see a literal millenial reign on earth being described here -like President Jesus, secretary of state Peter, secretary of defense James, etc.
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Wow, that is amazing charles.

    So according to you, there is some kind of heirarchy in heaven. Well, funny that Peter called himself a fellow elder in I Peter 5. I guess according to you the nation of Israel will be regathered in heaven for the disciples to judge them. Snicker snicker, this keeps getting better.

    Try again charles. That was pathetic.

    You don't see an earthly reign for the same reason a thief does not see a cop, you don't want to. You are not amill because of exegesis, you are non-premill because of a predujice.

    Can a nonliberal amill try, chaz has been all over the place here?
     
  14. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    DD,

    Did you even read my post? I gather you did not. I do NOT see any hierarchy. I was merely poking fun (slightly) at the ultraliteral interpretations of some who actually seeing the apostles as some kind of governing body.

    It should be pretty clear that Jesus is making a reference to the twelve being lowly here and exalted in heaven. Did you bother to read Lk 22:30 or Mk 10:45? Or Rev 3:21?

    Read Fitzmyer, Hagner, Allison, Davies - or any scholarly commentator for that matter.

    Or are they pathetic liberal amills too?

    I suggest you do a lot more reading this year. You might want to expand your horizons beyond just what you have been taught.
     
  15. Daniel David

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    Charles, have you noticed the combination of the Matthew text, Revelation 5:10 (a vision of belivers in heaven looking forward to reigning upon the earth), and Revelation 20:4?

    It is impossible for the verse to mean heaven. You have to rip out half the details.

    Next.
     
  16. Charles Meadows

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    DD,

    I guess you HAVE done a little reading...

    :D

    Rev 5:10 (as does Rev 1:6) conjures the same imagery as the Matthean verse. This hearkens back to Exodus 19:6, where God describes Israel as a "kingdom of priests". Thus this verse alone does not necessitate a further futuristic event.

    Rev 20:6 is more complicated. Suffice it to say that there are several arguments suggesting the implication of a literal 1000 year reign on earth, particularly in this section of Revelation. Still the overall picture is one of a once and for all death and judgment. The thrones here represent their victorious status - and do not imply a literal reign on earth.

    More on this later, kids need attention.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Charles Meadows

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    I should add that I don't hold any animosity towards those who believe in a literal millenium. for believing biblical passages literally. But a desire for them to be so does not make them so. Amillers believe what we believe out of a sincere desire to rightly divide the word. I have no problem admitting that I could be 100% wrong on all of this.

    In all honesty I think that an examination of scripture as a whole yields a picture of a single judgement followed by heaven or hell. There are several passages in Revelation (esp ch.20) and elsewhere which speak about "a thousand years" and "reigning with Christ". But these are often cloaked in symbolic terms. Other than Rev 20 there is no mention anywhere of millenium FOLLOWED BY heaven. Revelation is apocalyptic writing - there is NO REASON to see it as being all literal - unless one simply decides that he or she WANTS to see it that way. It obviously utilizes alot of symbolism.

    What alot of premillers tend to say is, "Well Revelation 20 says that they reign for a thousand years so let's find a place on the timeline to stick in this thousand years". Never mind that most of scripture does not speak of any intervening "millenium" BEFORE heaven.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Daniel David

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    Charles, Revelation 20 only gives us the duration of the earthly kingdom. That it exists is obvious.
     
  19. Archeryaddict

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    Regeneration has not yet taken place because the regeneration Jesus is speaking of the first resurrection of the saints, when after they are regenerated they will come back to earth with Jesus after the tribulation and will reighn over the inhabitants of the earth with a rod of iron during the millenial reign of Christ.

    the earth will still have a governing system and the saints will have positions within the government ahich Christ will be Head over the government this is the true New World Order.
     
  20. Daniel David

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    The regeneration is what Paul spoke of in Romans 8. It is when the entire earth will be renewed under the presence of the Lord.
     

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