When was Peter born again?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    1. When he obeyed Jesus to follow him
    2. When he confessed Christ at Matthew 16:17
    3. When Jesus breathed the Spirit into him at John 20:22
    4. Pentecost
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ben;
    My Answer;
    3. When Jesus breathed the Spirit into him at John 20:22
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    This topic has no apparent relevance to this forum. If you wish to carry on this discussion, it would be best to take it to the other religions forum. If you think it should be here, please indicate how it is related to this topic. Otherwise, I will move it for you.
     
  4. Ben Elohim

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    It has relevance to the doctrine of Total Depravity.
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    It is related to the Calvinist/Arminian debate because Calvinist believe in old testament regeneration. IWO they believe Peter was regenerated before He believe. Which is not so.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero
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    OK,

    I'll bite, what does
    have to do with Total Depravity?

     
  7. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    have to do with Total Depravity?

    </font>[/QUOTE]Well oddly, enough, Calvinists will argue that if anyone has the Spirit of God this amounts to regeneration, such as John the Baptist and David.

    However, Peter did not receive the Spirit until Jesus rose from the dead and Jesus told him outright that the Spirit would not come to the disciples until he rose from the dead. And so Calvinists do not wish to follow their own line of reasoning with respect to Peter and the disciples.

    Yet, Peter obeyed Jesus' call to follow him and confessed Christ long before Jesus rose from the dead and before Peter received the Spirit. In other words, he believed and obeyed before he was born again, something that is impossible in Calvinist theology.

    Does God leave born again believers without his Spirit? And how was Peter born again into the risen body of Christ before the body of Christ died and rose again?

    The fact that the reasonable person can see that Peter was not born again until Jesus rose from the dead, illustrates that the Calvinist version of the doctrine of Total Depravity is completely wrong.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    That is not true. In the OT, men like Saul had the Holy Spirit and were not regenerated. There are different works of hte HOly Spirit. It is necessary to know this.

    Secondly, the giving of the Spirit at Pentecost is not regeneration, nor is the statement of John 20:22. Those are different things. You are completely misguided here.

    The promise of hte Spirit was Spirit baptism, not regeneration.

    You have wrongly identified the work fo the Spirit in Acts 2.

    You are very misguided here. You have demonstrated nothing of hte sort. YOu are confused as to the work fo the Spirit. The Acts 2 work was Spirit baptism, not regeneration. Those folks were already believers.

    It would help to learn what Calvinists believe before trying to refute it. You, like many others, are simply confused.
     
  9. Ben Elohim

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    Well I am saving this one for later [​IMG]

    So I guess you have absolutely no proof John the Baptist was born again and that just might be the reason the least in the Kingdom is greater than John.

    Okay now then, what exactly IS the new birth PL? Please do explain it in detail, complete with Scriptural support of course. How does it occur and what does it have to do with the Spirit? And will you insist that God would leave any of his people without the Holy Spirit?
     
  10. billwald

    billwald
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    "Being born again" is more secret than the Rapture. &lt;G&gt; Jesus' statement about being "born gain" is followed by a statement that the process, whatever it is, is something arbitrarially (?) accomplished by the HS and the human has no control over it.
     
  11. billwald

    billwald
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    In other words, there is no observable evidence that anyone is ever "born again" EXCEPT the "fruits of the Spirit." If one exhibits the "fruits" then it can be presumed that one is "born again."
     
  12. Ben Elohim

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    So then, we can be certain that the Bible does not anywhere tell us what being born again is all about and how it works, correct?
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Of course, John the Baptist was born again.

    The new birth is the giving of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. I will not take time to defend that in great detail since you can do your own homework on that.

    The Bible says it is like the wind (John 3). We don't really know precisely.

    The Spirit effects it.

    Of course not. That was another silly question.
     
  14. Ben Elohim

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    Of course, John the Baptist was born again.</font>[/QUOTE]No he wasn't. The least born again in the Kingdom of God is greater than John, the greatest born of women.

    The new birth is the giving of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. I will not take time to defend that in great detail since you can do your own homework on that.</font>[/QUOTE]

    I did my homework PL. The question here now is whether you did. You gave no Scriptural support for your answer.

    The Bible says it is like the wind (John 3). We don't really know precisely.</font>[/QUOTE]

    No, the Bible says that we don't know from where the Spirit comes and goes (you may also wish to note Jesus says this about himself later in the gospel). It does not say we do not know what and how the new birth works in itself. Indeed, Jesus is chastizing Nicodemus right here for not knowing.

    The Spirit effects it.</font>[/QUOTE]

    What exactly does the Spirit effect PL?

    Of course not. That was another silly question. </font>[/QUOTE][/b][/QUOTE]

    Well then was Peter left without the Spirit in his heart before John 20:22?
     
  15. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;

    Ok you said "of course" So where's the proof?
    You didn't prove it Larry makes it looks like you can't.
    So you admit you don't know but didn't you just State that John the Baptist was bornagain. If you don't know then why did you make that statement?
    Are you saying we are saved by the Spirit? If He is responsible then that is what you are saying isn't it. Then tell me didn't Christ say;
    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    If Christ is the life then He it is that quickens us.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  16. Pastor Larry

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    That has nothing to do with regeneration. It is hard to remember a time when I have seen so much of such poor Bible study. Did you actually think all this up yourself or are you citing someone?

    If you are questioning the nature of regeneration then you have not done your homework. I do not cite the support here because 1) you should already know and 2) I don't have time.

    The topic of that passage in teh new birth, and Nicodemus is chastised for not knowing about the new birth from the OT, and Jesus talks about the Spirit because he is the one who brings about the new birth. Again, Bible study is the key.

    Did you forget what we were talking about already? Why aren't you following along in the conversation. We are talking about the new birth.

    No. The Spirit has different roles in Scripture, which again, if you have done your homework you would know.
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    The testimony of Scripture.


    No it doesn't. Everyone here knows very well that I could support it if I wanted to take the time. And virtually everyone here already knows. This should not be being questioned in this forum. This forum really assumes a certain amount of knowledge. It looks like you don't know what you are talking about since you are questioning a very clear doctrine of SCripture. I don't have time to rehearse it for you here. Get out your Bible and study it.

    Go back and read. That answer was not about whether someone was born again, but about how specifically the Spirit works in regeneration. YOu took the answer to one question and pretended like it was to another question. Please don't do that; that is an unethical method of debate. Treat the answers with the questions that they are in response to. Do not switch them up.

    No. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is the agent of regeneration. The Trinity is involved in the salvation process.

    What is in the water these days? Why are we questioning these most basic teachings of Scripture?
     
  18. Ben Elohim

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    So then Pastor Larry, can we conclude that you will insist that Peter was regenerate and had the Spirit when he faithfully obeyed the call of Jesus to follow him?
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    Why Larry it seems you are unable to defend Calvinism against the truth of Scripture. You say the testimony of scripture and that is what this man is showing you.
    Are you accussing me of pretending Larry I believe it's called a personal attack
    Speaking of unethical Larry; stop attacking me personally. Which is what you are doing right now both questions desever an answer but you seem to be unable to answer them.
    If this is true then you shouldn't mind showing scripture to prove it. You make a statement and think the whole world should take Larry's word for it. I just don't place my trust in Larry's Calvinism. I trust Christ.
    More water!
    Who's basic teachings Larry I have never believe the Holy Spirit to be my Savior. While yes He is my God as well but His office is comforter not Savior.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Larry;
    More correctly it seems ("unable") would be more appropreate.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     

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