where are the Covenants of Works and between the Father /Son in Bible?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    As to me, seems to be more implied and based upon presumptions then actually described in there!
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    What do you mean by the covenant of works? How would you describe that theological term?
     
  3. preacher4truth

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    Seems to me there is no such thing, salvation always being by Grace, and we have Jesus rebuking Nicodemus for not knowing salvation and regeneration is from above, and not via works or by man -- John 3:10ff.

    Are you implying salvation was by works in the past?
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    NO!
    rather that don't reformed bethren hold to Gos establishing and maintaining a relationship with Adam before the fall a Covenant based upon Adam freely keeping and doing works?
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    What have you actually read on this topic?

    How would you describe Adam....before the fall?

    What was his condition?

    What was his responsibility?

    Was any covenant in place with anyone?

    If God deals with mankind by way of covenant....what Covenant if any was in effect at creation? At Gen 1:31?

    Was any Covenant in effect before creation?

    What Covenants can you identify in scripture if any?

    Have you thought on these things...before you ask your question?

    Answer each one if possible.
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    Hosea6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

    Adam was under a covenant.
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Correct Grasshopper!
     
  8. percho

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    And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
    But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
    In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    The covenant that counts.
     
  9. Yeshua1

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  10. Iconoclast

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    Yes....what did they say? What are two or three of the main i?deas that they offered?

    How do you define a Covenant?
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    Would there have to be a Covenant in place before the Fall?

    reformed call one of works, what works did God require?

    And where in the Bible is that Covenant between the father and Son mentioned?
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Yeshua1

    hello y1,

    As a baptist I see and understand that God has dealt with mankind in terms of Covenant. because of this we have much in common with our Presbyterian brethren.
    This is obviously a large area of study.I will offer up some ideas that will perhaps aid you in your study of this important subject. I asked you all these questions because these are the very minimum questions that must be considered if you want to get a serious understanding of covenants and how they relate to the bible.

    Another reason for my questions back to you is I have noticed that you ask many questions....which is okay...however....You need to be careful not to form your understanding on all second hand information.
    I read quite a bit and use the teachings of others..after I have looked up the topic and verses involved, then I start to form a biblically informed opinion...subject to change or modification.
    This is essential to come to an informed understanding....so the questions i asked you were in my understanding quite necessary before proceeding.

    The answer to this would be found in part here;

    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    In this section of scripture we do not see the word Covenant written...yet it is spoken of as I believe can be demonstrated.

    I would first like for you to tell me.....what do you think is at the heart of the biblical use of the term Covenant.....

    I am not asking for the technical language [which is also important]..like the words berith, or diatheke....

    I am asking what is your understanding in simple terms...I think there are some verses that speak of it....if you can offer them it would help..if not I will in my next post.



    When you answer my previous question about how you understand the term Covenant...then I will point to the solution here.



    When we answer question 1 about what is essential to the meaning of the Biblical covenant.....These two questions will answer themselves quite easily.

    i will return in about 3 hours....:wavey:
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Oct 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2013
  13. Yeshua1

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    the way that I understand Covenant in the Biblical sense is that there is a spiritual relationship established between God and mankind, and that relationship is based upon certainn requirements God has established between the 2 parties in order for it to be carried out...

    I see just Old and New Ones in the Bible, as see Abrahamiac, Noahic, davidic etc onesas more as how God ministered his grace towards us in different times, different dispensations in History!
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    Yeshua1
    Okay...good response, let's see what we have;

    1]is that there is a spiritual relationship established between God and mankind,

    2]and that relationship is based upon certainn requirements God has established

    3]requirements God has established between the 2 parties in order for it to be carried out

    So....in your own understanding I think you have described much of what a Covenant consists of without using the actual word Covenant. This is how you will begin to understand how they come to their teaching.


    Yes...of course you see these covenants in scripture because it uses the word covenant.We are on safe gound when we see this.... and yet when the covenant was passed on to David.... the word Covenant was not used at first.

    In 2 sam7

    8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:

    9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.

    10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

    11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house.

    12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

    13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

    14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

    15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

    16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

    17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.


    In 2 sam7 it does not mention the word covenant....and yet it was

    here;
    23 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,

    2 The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

    3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

    4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.

    5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.






    Psalm 89

    King James Version (KJV)

    89 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

    2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

    3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

    4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.


    So when theological terms are used...you look for the elements of the Covenant.We have a great advantage as we do this in that although we only have a few verses speaking of Adam{they are very significant}we have many verses about the Last Adam...the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    #14 Iconoclast, Oct 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2013
  15. Iconoclast

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    So...from theopedia;
    n Covenant theology, the Covenant of Works is the second of three theological covenants. It is that pre-Fall agreement between God and Adam in which Adam was promised blessing and life upon obedience to the terms of the covenant and cursing and death should he disobey the terms of the covenant. Covenant theologians maintain that the requirements of the covenant relationship are clearly defined in the commands that God gave to Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:28-30; cf 2:15) and in the direct command to Adam, 'You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die' (Gen. 2:16–17).

    The Bible teaches that in Adam, all broke the covenant (Hos. 6:7)
    and so, in Adam all die (1 Cor. 15:22).

    Within covenant theology, the Covenant of Grace is God's covenant designed to bring humanity into a restored covenant relationship with him, through the death of Christ.
     
  16. percho

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    Is it clear in the word of God that a man born from a human father and mother has never kept the part of a covenant God required of him?

    God gives the covenant, man fails and God keeps on keeping on.

    Therefore the covenant which would be kept by both parties would be made with the Son of God born of woman who had been taken from the man created in the image of God.

    That would bring redemption for man who never kept the part of the covenant assigned him by God the maker of the covenant.

    Not by works of righteousness which we have done.

    The covenant of works was that the Son be obedient unto death even the death on the cross. Slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8 1Pet 1:19,20 Phil 2:8
    The covenant of grace. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 1 Peter 1:21 Gal 1:1

    The other covenants with man were to bring unto Christ.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    percho

    :thumbsup:
    yes Adam failed
    yes
    Yes.....we are saved by works of righteousness,,,,not our righteousness...but the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

    To understand the Covenant of works....you must look at the work of the Last Adam.


    [/QUOTE]

    yes...for the most part.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    From monergism.com

     
  19. Iconoclast

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    from A.W.PINK;

    III.

    Before entering into detail upon the nature and terms of the compact which God made with Adam, it may be well to obviate an objection which some are likely to make against the whole subject; namely, that since the word covenant is not to be found in the historical account of Genesis, therefore to speak of the Adamic covenant is naught but a theological invention. There is a certain class of people, posing as ultraorthodox, who imagine they have a reverence and respect for Holy Writ as the final court of appeal which surpasses that of their fellows.

    They say, Show me a passage which expressly states God made a covenant with Adam, and that will settle the matter; but until you can produce a verse with the exact term “Adamic covenant” in it, I shall believe no such thing.

    Our reason for referring to this paltry quibble is because it illus*trates a very superficial approach to God’s Word which is becoming more and more prevalent in certain quarters, and which stands badly in need of being corrected. Words are only counters or signs after all (different writers use them with varying latitude, as is sometimes the case in Scripture itself); and to be unduly occupied with the shell often results in a failure to obtain the kernel within. Some Unitarians refuse to believe in the tri‑unity of God, merely because no verse can be found which categorically affirms there are “three Persons in the Godhead” or where the word Trinity is used. But what matters the absence of the mere word itself, when three distinct divine persons are clearly delineated in the Word of truth! For the same reason others repudiate the fact of the total depravity of fallen man, which is the height of absurdity when Scripture depicts him as corrupt in all the faculties of his being.

    Surely I need not to be told that a certain person has been born again if all the evidences of regeneration are clearly discernible in his life; and if I am furnished with a full description of his immersion, the mere word baptism does not make it any more sure and definite to my mind. Our first search, then, in Genesis, is not for the term covenant, but to see whether or not we can trace the outlines of a solemn and definite pact between God and Adam. We say this not because the word itself is never associated with our first parents—for elsewhere it is—but because we are anxious that certain of our readers may be delivered from the evil mentioned above. To dismiss from our minds all thoughts of an Adamic covenant simply because the term itself occurs not in Genesis 1 to 5 is to read those chapters very superficially and miss much which lies only a little beneath their surface.

    Let us now remind ourselves of the essential elements of a cove*nant. Briefly stated, any covenant is a mutual agreement entered into by two or more parties, whereby they stand solemnly bound to each other to perform the conditions contracted for.


    Amplifying that definition, it may be pointed out that the terms of a covenant are (1) there is a stipulation of something to be done or given by that party proposing the covenant; (2) there is a re-stipulation by the other party of something to be done or given in consideration; (3) those stipula*tions must be lawful and right, for it can never be right to engage to do wrong; (4) there is a penalty included in the terms of agreement, some evil consequence to result to the party who may or shall violate his agreement—that penalty being added as a security.

    A covenant then is a disposition of things, an arrangement concern*ing them, a mutual agreement about them. But again we would remind the reader that words are but arbitrary things; and we are never safe in trusting to a single term, as though from it alone we could collect the right knowledge of the thing. No, our inquiry is into the thing itself.
    What are the matters of fact to which these terms are applied?
    Was there any moral transaction between God and Adam wherein the above mentioned four principles were involved?
    Was there any propo*sition made by God to man of something to be done by the latter? any stipulation of something to be given by the former? any agree*ment of both? any penal sanction? To such interrogations every accurate observer of the contents of Genesis 1 to 3 must answer affirmatively.

    “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17). Here are all the constituent elements of a covenant:
    (1) there are the contracting parties, the Lord God and man;
    (2) there is a stipulation enjoined, which man (as he was duty bound) engaged to perform;
    (3) there was a penalty prescribed, which would be incurred in case of failure;
    (4) there was by clear and necessary implication a reward promised, to which Adam would be entitled by his fulfillment of the condition;
    (5) the “tree of life” was the divine seal or ratifica*tion of the covenant, as the rainbow was the seal of the covenant which God made with Noah. Later, we shall endeavor to furnish clear proof of each of these statements.

    “We here have, in the beginning of the world, distinctly placed before us, as the parties to the covenant, the Creator and the creature, the Governor and the governed. In the covenant itself, brief as it is, we have concentrated all those primary, anterior, and eternal principles of truth, righteousness, and justice, which enter necessarily into the nature of the great God, and which must always pervade His govern*ment, under whatever dispensation; we have a full recognition of His authority to govern His intelligent creatures, according to these princi*ples, and we have a perfect acknowledgment on the part of man, that in all things he is subject, as a rational and accountable being, to the will and direction of the infinitely wise and benevolent Creator. No part of a covenant therefore, in its proper sense, is wanting” (R. B. Howell, The Covenant, 1855).
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    Again, the reformed presume and deduce by implying that Adam and the trinity had to be in covenant with another, but we cannot see tht stated directly though!

    The relationship between God and Adam/Eve seems tobe based upon them being in His Image, special act of creation, so a Covenant did not need to be established between them until Sin fractures thatCreation relationship, as their image become marred, while the trinity needs no covenant between themselves, as they are all equally God, and would ALL from eternity have same mind regarding the Cross of Christ!
     

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