Where do you line up?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Calvibaptist, Apr 24, 2006.

  1. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
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    Two Questions:

    1) Who said the following?

    "The mercy of God offers everyone favorable opportunities for repentance. One needs only to attach the rest of one’s own will to God’s help, which merely invites to, but does not compel to betterment. Furthermore, one finds the opinion, that it is within our power to turn our will towards or away from grace – just as it is our pleasure to open or close our eyes against light. It is incompatible with the infinite love of God for man that a man’s striving with all his might for grace should be frustrated. Through that grace, which they call sanctifying, if he inspires to it with all his power, it results that no sinner should be overconfident, none again should despair. No one perishes except through his own fault."

    2) Do you agree with this statement?
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    1. Erasmus

    2. No.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
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    You're no fun, Joseph. You got it too quickly.

    What about everyone else. Do you agree with the content of the statement?
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Anyone with a search engine could have figured it out rather easily. :D

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
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    I should have qualified my question by adding, "No fair using google!"
     
  6. James_Newman

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    I don't think I understand what uncle 'Rasmus is getting at. Maybe I am not striving with all my might to understand it, but I don't believe a man has to strive for grace.
     
  7. Me4Him

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  8. doulous

    doulous
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    Yes, I agree with it. (Should I turn in my resignation on Tuesday? [​IMG] )

    Seriously, OF COURSE I don't agree with it.
     
  9. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    No, I disagree with the statement. It attempts to let man share in the glory of his salvation. No wonder that Erasmus was considered one of the early Humanists.
     
  10. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    I should add - I do agree with the last sentence.
     
  11. doulous

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    Herein lies the problem. By this statement Erasmus has linked himself to the Pelagian controversy by stating that man cooperates with God in salvation. This belief was rightly labled by the church as heresy at numerous councils and synods and published in a series of articles and confessions. Here is a sampling;

    Early Church Confessions
    Carthage 418
    Ephesus 431
    Orange 529

    Protestant Confessions
    2nd Helvetic 1566
    Augsburg 1530
    Gallican 1559
    Belgic 1561
    Anglican 1571
    Dort 1618

    Me4Him, you will probably want us to produce the scriptural reasons for the labeling as Pelagius' teachings as heretical (and hence Erasmus' also). Suffice to say that all these confessions that have posted here contain more scriptural support than any of us would have time to read. You can find most of them at this link: Mongerism.com.
    I would urge you to take sufficient time to look at the study these men took to prove whether Pelagius was correct or guilty of heresy. Arminius and Erasmus linked themselves to Pelagius by their own statements. In light of the overwhelming agreement of the councils and synods (and their corresponding confessions), which are based on scripture, it should provoke a Christians to study and be careful lest, they too stumble into heresy.
     
  12. npetreley

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    I find this to be so twisted, it's almost funny:

    Find me one unregenerate man who, of his own free will, strives with all his might for grace, and then we'll talk. ;)
     
  13. lgpruitt

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    LOL....life without Google would be so much more difficult! Gotta love search engines.... [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  14. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    Find me one unregenerate man who, of his own free will, strives with all his might for grace, and then we'll talk. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    You can start the conversation by admitting you were wrong. :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. Calvibaptist

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    One problem, Me4, none of the verses you quoted with no exegesis state that man strives for GRACE. They all show man working to earn heaven. I would be interested in knowing exactly what you like about this paragraph. And if you are going to throw verses around, it helps if you detail what you think they actually mean.

    Andy, I agree with Erasmus' last statement as well (that's the only part).
     
  16. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
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    Just a little background info about this paragraph I quoted:

    Erasmus was one of the most popular humanists of his day. He was a contemporary of Luther and communicated with him quite a bit. He was, due to his humanistic ideals, very sympathetic to Luther's practical reform suggestions. He could not stand the hierarchy of the church and all the religious trappings. He also believed that the Bible should be in the hands of the common folk.

    But, when it came to Luther's theology, the two were miles apart. Eventually, Erasmus was commissioned by the Roman Catholic Church to defend the faith against Luther's attacks. He chose Luther's (and Augustine's) view of the nature of man as his point of attack, knowing that if that could be made to fall, so could the rest.

    This paragraph is taken from his work "Diatribe on Free Will," which is his attack (on behalf of the Roman Church) against Luther. Luther responded in "The Bondage of the Will," which even Luther admits is his most important work.
     
  17. J.D.

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    Hello, I'm not posting much these days - very busy - anyway I would have guessed either Finney or Pelagius himself. Didn't know Erasmus was so close to P. I haven't read Diatribe or Bondage. Will put that on my todo list! [​IMG]
     
  18. J.D.

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    That's the rub. How can anyone that claims to believe the Bible agree with such a statement as that?

    Bible: 2 Cor 4:7b that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

    J.D.
    God's Loveless Robot/Puppet
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  19. webdog

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    I can find you a few million of them. Walk into a catholic church any Sunday (or Saturday).
     
  20. webdog

    webdog
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    That's the rub. How can anyone that claims to believe the Bible agree with such a statement as that?

    Bible: 2 Cor 4:7b that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

    J.D.
    God's Loveless Robot/Puppet
    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Glory in his holy name;
    let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
    Look to the Lord and his strength;
    seek his face always.
    1 Chron. 16:10-11

    "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the god of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever."
    1 Chron. 28:9

    Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God. He removed the foreign altars and the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He commanded Judah to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, and to obey his laws and commands.
    2 Chron. 14:2-4

    The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Obed. He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you."
    2 Chron. 15:1-2

    Josiah was eight yers old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one yhears. He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and walked in the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David.
    2 Chron. 34:1-3a

    Those who know your name will trust in you,
    for you, Lord, have never forsaken those who seek you.
    Psalm 9:10


    In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak,
    who are caught in the schemes he devises.
    He boasts of the cravings of his heart;
    he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.
    In his pride the wicked does not seek him;
    in all this thoughts there is no room for God.
    Psalm 10:2-4

    The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    they who seek the Lord wil praise him --
    may your hearts live forever!
    Psalm 22:26

    The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.
    Psalm 34:10

    But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you;
    may those who love your salvation always say, "The Lord be exalted!"
    Psalm 40:16

    May those who hope in you not be disgraced because of me,
    O Lord, the Lord Almighty;
    ma;y those who seek you not be put to shame because of me,
    O God of Israel.

    .../the poor will see and be glad --
    you who seek God, may your hearts live!
    The Lord hears the needy and does not despise his captive people.
    Psalm 69:6, 32-33

    Cover their [the enemies of God, v.2] faces with shame
    so that men will seek your name, O Lord.
    Psalm 83:16

    Glory in his holy name;
    let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice.
    Look to the Lord and his strength;
    seek his face always.
    Psalm 105:3-4

    Blessed are they who keep his statutes
    and seek him with all their heart.
    Psalm 119:2

    Evil men do not understand justice,
    but those who seek the Lord understand it fully./i]
    Proverbs 28:5

    Seek the Lord while he may be found;
    call on him while he is near.
    Let the wicked forsake his way
    and the evil man his thoughts.
    Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him,
    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
    Isaiah 55:6-7

    "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the Lord...
    Jeremiah 29:13

    "For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, like a great lion to Judah.
    I will tear them to pieces and go away;
    I will carry them off, with no one to rescue them.
    Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt.
    And they will seek my face;
    in their misery, they will earnestly seek me."
    Hosea 5:14-15

    This is what the Lord says to the house of Israel:
    "Seek me and live"...Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire.
    Amos 5:4, 6

    Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
    you who do what he commands.
    Zephaniah 2:3a

    "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. for everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
    Matthew 7:7-8

    "From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
    Acts 17:26-27

    Webdog
    a 'son of God', joint heir with Christ, friend of God
    [​IMG]
     

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