Where does believing faith come from part 3

Now, that's funny. You didn't deal with anything scriptural (except one thing that I'll get to in a moment). Instead, your "issue" is that I'm a Calvinist. So your argument is not substantial in the least. Instead, your argument is an ad hominem

You wrote:

I'm tiring of trying to teach Greek to you. ὁ is not a relative pronoun. ὁ is, however, the definite article. ὁ being the definite article is attested to by the following participle being adjectival and, therefore, requiring the definite article. Furthermore, ὁ, the definite article, should not be confused with ὅ which is the relative pronoun--that little accent makes a world of difference.

So, the translation "all the believing ones" is correct, because the word "who" is not even there.

I'm going to start charging you for my services as a tutor, I think.

Again, another accusation which has no basis in truth. Calvinists do not believe in determinism. Calvinists believe the will is bound before regeneration--the will is bound to sin, like a slave to a master. We believe, that for the will to truly be "free" God must regenerate a person.

Again, rather than rail against our position blindly, try understanding it first, even if you may not agree with it.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Benefactor,

I asked: My question is not dealing with Abraham's being credited with righteousness (his faith was counted as righteousness). My question is dealing with God's choosing him when he was faithless.

Your ad hominem answer that didn't deal with the question:

Do I think that God "knows" those who will believe? Yes. Why? Because He chose them. But, even so, whether He "chooses" or simply "knows" who will believe is irrelevant to this question.

You claim that one has to have faith before God does anything with that person. What I want to know is this: Why did God even speak to a idol-worshiping, faith-less Abraham?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

First of all, where do you get this "idol-worshipping, faith-less Abraham" stuff?

The very first mention of Abram (Abraham) other than showing his geneology is Genesis chapter 12. And he is shown to believe and obey God here.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Abraham is mentioned in Genesis chapter 11, but this speaks of his birth, his marriage, and that his father Terah brought them out of Ur of the Chaldees into the land of Canaan where they dwelt in Haran. There is not one word to show that Abraham was an idolator. Genesis 12:1 is the very first mention of interaction between God and Abraham, and Abraham was obedient to God and trusted him.

And you still cannot grasp the concept of foreknowledge. God knows who will believe him before that person is even born. Why is this so difficult to understand? We see the book of Revelations, has any of this happened yet? But God has already told us what will happen in those days. So God can see who will believe and obey him.

And that is why he chose Abraham, because he knew he would believe. There is not one word in scripture to support your notion that Abraham was an idolator, or faithless. If you know of such scripture, please show it.

 

This really has nothing to do with context, all though I haven't taking anything out of context.

Jesus is not telling Nicodemus to "Have faith"

In v. 12 (2 occurrences) Jesus states Nicodemus (and, presumably all the Jews, because the verb is plural) does not believe earthly things. Then, Jesus asks how Nicodemus and the Jews will believe if He tells them earthly things.

No command to have faith there.

In v. 15+16 the word "believing" is a participle and it is saying "the ones believing."

No command to have faith there.

In v. 18 (3 occurrences) Jesus states twice the participle, again, meaning the ones believing. The last example is Jesus saying that the ones not believing are condemned already...because they have not believed in Him.

No command to have faith there.

Also, you have underlined several instances of the word "believe" and the word in question is faith. Now, to be fair, the words are closely related, but one is a noun (faith) and one is a verb (believing).

But, that's not the issue. Calvinists agree that faith is "absolutely necessary to be saved." The issue is this: The Arminian camp claims that faith must precede regeneration. Calvinists claim that faith is a result of God's regenerating work.

Does Jesus tell Nicodemus he must have faith? No. Jesus' point is not to say faith must precede salvation. Jesus' point is, however, that God does a work in us--being born again (from above).

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Hi Archangel. Where does scripture say that Abram worshiped idols? I can't find it. Thanks.

 

But Jesus does in fact tell Nicodemus he must have faith to be saved. You are completely disregarding the most famous verse in all of scripture, John 3:16.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus here says those that believe on him "should not perish, but have" everlasting life. You must clearly believe to "have" everlasting life.

(edit- don't want trouble, or to offend) I learned this verse as a young boy and easily understood it.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Notice I highlighted "to them" in John 1:12. Who is this "to them"?? It is those that received Jesus and believe on his name. And "to them" gave he power (Holy Spirit) "to become" the sons of God. They were not the sons of God and did not have the power to be the sons of God until they first believed on Jesus. Then and only then does God give them the power to be born again. So, it is not our faith that saves us, we do not have any power, it is God that has the power and gives it to us as a free gift.

 

Sure there is: Joshua 24

2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. 3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. (emphasis mine)

Abraham was an idol-worshiper and, therefore, faithless when God appeared to him. So, Abraham didn't have faith before.

Oh, I get the concept of foreknowledge, it's just not right.

First, it doesn't mean what you think it means. It doesn't mean to simply "know beforehand," it means to choose. Paul uses it that way in Romans 8 and 11.

Second, if God chooses based on foreknowledge, as you understand it, it makes God the responder and man the initiator--which is never suggested in any of God's relationships. God is always the Initiator and man is always the responder.

And, this is just a pet peeve with everyone. The last book of the Bible is not "Revelations" (plural), it is Revelation (singular).

But, God is not telling us what He "thinks" is going to happen as if He were a movie-goer with no intimate connection with the movie He is watching. Rather God is telling us what is going to happen precisely because He is the Writer-Producer-Director.

Isaiah 26 says:

for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ (9b-10)

Now, "declaring" in verse 10 is a bit too weak. The verb מַגִּיד is a hiphil stem and, as such, carries a causative sense with it. So, God is not merely declaring, he is "Authoring" the end from the beginning.

God is not a bystander; God is the Author and Driver.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Thanks Archangel. I knew I had read Joshua 24:2, 3 but had not found them yet.

 

It means to choose? How does Paul use it that way in Romans?
It means to know beforehand, plain and simple.

If this is true with one aspect (election), it is also true in all aspects including sin. You believe God "authors and drives" man to sin?

Where does it say Abraham served other gods...I see Terah.

 

Hebrews 12:2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The above Scripture states that Jesus Christ is the Author and finisher of our faith. I don't see how you free willers can deny this truth. But I am sure you will!

 

We have never denied it...you just keep ignorantly claiming such tripe.

 

Again, you're missing the point.

First, I'm not saying that faith is unnecessary. Faith, I gladly affirm, is absolutely necessary for salvation.

First, in John 3:16 it talks about "the believing ones." It certainly says the ones believing will not perish. But, it says nothing of how they became "believing ones."

In John 1:12 the verbs "received" and "gave" are both aorist. There is no quid-pro-quo between the verbs. In other words, both acts are stated, simply as past events, and are not necessarily dependent on one another. However, it may be logically inferred that receiving Him is necessary, and that is why even Calvinists still call people to repent, believe, and receive Christ.

Again, the issue is not having to have faith; the issue is not receiving Him; the issue is not believing in Him. We all agree that those are absolutely non-negotiable. The issue, is, which comes first. The verse that you have so carefully quoted and underlined for my needed benefit do not speak to which comes first.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

No, it doesn't. Here's Paul's only two uses in Romans

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 11:2
2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

The underlined words are the same in Greek. Lexical information is important but Paul's usage is much more telling. In 11:2 he is using "foreknew" as an antonym against "rejected." He's stating definitively that God will not reject His own people--His chosen people. So, since he uses the same exact word (in the exact same form) to discuss the "chosen," it must be the case that this word in 8:29 means choose.

Paul clearly uses this word as "choose."

No, it doesn't. Because we know what James 1 says:

12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

So your assertion is precluded by Scripture itself. Now, does it fit together nicely? No. Does it bother me? Yes. But that doesn't mean it isn't the way it works.

The verb "served" is plural. If Joshua were intending to say that only Terah was the idol worshiper he would have used a singular. So, Abraham is included in the lot.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Yes, all of you have denied it! You have all claimed that saving faith originates within yourselves; that it is not the gift of God.

Are you now claiming that you believe that faith is the gift of God? If so you have had an epiphany! Perhaps it will be catching.
__________________

 

Joshua 24:2 (King James Version)

2And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

This says that Terah served other gods. It doesn't say Abraham did.

In fact, it seems as though God saw that Abraham was different from his family.

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:


God is separating Abraham from his family. Could it be because Abraham did not worship other Gods as his father did?

 

I found this site about Jewish traditions.
Judaism 101



Abraham

 

I do believe faith is a gift of God among many gifts. Other gifts include the ability to think, reason, speak, know right from wrong, make moral decisions, experience emotions, and most importantly to respond to God. The Bible calls this being created in God's image.

How does God creating us with the ability to choose or reject Him make Him un-sovereign?

 

Inasmuch as the gift of tongues is a spiritual gift of God to the Hindus (for some of them do speak in tongues), so is faith a gift of God to the Hindus, and all other pagans, or the unsaved. Faith is a gift from God. But God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved. He never has, still does not, and never will. It is against his nature to do so. Satan imitates God. If you see an unsaved person exercising what is considered a spiritual gift then it is not of God but of Satan.

The conclusion here is simple. The faith that is required for man to believe on Christ is not a gift from God. It is faith, trust, confidence, in the gospel message that Christ died for their sins. That trust or confidence did not come from God, but from their own free will to choose or to reject the Lord as their Saviour; for "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Does the Bible lie? No, it gives man a choice; it doesn't coerce man into believing.

 

Old Regular, all existence is the gift of God. I would not exist without God, I would have no abilities whatsoever unless God gave it to me.

But the ability to have faith is given to all men. The scriptures tell of men who put their faith in false gods. It uses the very same exact word as used to describe faith in the true God.

I am amazed that Calvinists do not see that if God gives you faith, then there is no glory to God for this. You are nothing but a robot, a puppet obeying his command. How does that glorify God?

I could build a robot with human features. Maybe a beautiful woman. And I could program her to tell me over and over how I am the most fantastic man that ever lived, and that she loves me forever, and that no man can compare or compete with me.

Now, would that be real? Of course not. And no sensible person would actually believe these pre-programmed words, they are meaningless. Actually, if anything it displays total self-centeredness and self-love. Only someone totally infatuated with themselves would want a robot or puppet like this. I certainly would not want a robot or puppet like this myself.