Where does it say we go to heaven???

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jcf, Feb 8, 2005.

  1. jcf

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    No where in Scripture does it say we go to heaven. We have been taught this and have believed it because we are all as sheep and have gone astray. Let us turn back to the Good Shepherd and hear His voice/words.

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
     
  2. PlainSense Bible believer

    PlainSense Bible believer
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    I could give you reams on this if you want it, but maybe just this will be of some help.
    God bless you,
    PlainSense
     
  3. music4Him

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    John 14:2 -
    In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Try this one also:Rev-4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
    2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


    Tam
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Revelation 7:9 (KJV1611):
    After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude,
    which no man could nuber, of all nations,
    and kindreds, and people, & tongues, stood
    before the throne, & before the Lamb
    ,
    clothed with white robes, and palmes
    in their hands:

    Sure sounds like heaven to me.
    Sure sounds like ALL OF US (Christians)
    to me.
     
  6. donnA

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  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    To this Christian it sounds like heaven upon this earth!
    Two-faceted: A. Here and now, today, through faith and in Christ only;
    B. In the day to come, when Christ has returned and brought the New Jerusalem with him, when sin and the wicked had been destroyed, and He has set up His throne of glory among the saved forever in touchable reality. Wherefore we pray, Come, Lord Jesus, come!
     
  8. jcf

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    God bless you,
    PlainSense
    </font>[/QUOTE]We have to be careful when we use one verse to form a doctrine. The bible as a whole says nothing of our going to heaven but just the opposite does it say we inherit the earth.

    The verse you used to support your doctrine is missunderstood due to the translators use of a comma. Jesus' reply was not that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise today but rather Jesus was telling thief one that day, in other words, Today I'm telling you, you will be in paradise.

    We can see from Scripture that Jesus was in the gave three days and then He preached the kingdom of God for 40 days after His reserrection and still He had not assended to be with His Father. So to say that He would be in paradise on the day He made that statement is not accurate according to Scripture.
     
  9. jcf

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    A mansion is bigger than a house so this is not talking about a place in heaven but rather Jesus is referring to His Father's house or family.

    Zechariah 12:12 "And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves;

    Psalms 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

    Jesus is right now in heaven building a family for His Father in that Jesus is restoring relationships of those who desire to be in the coming kingdom. So now the next question, where will this coming kingdom be?

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
     
  10. jcf

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    It may seem like we are in heaven if you just use the portion of Scripture you gave but if you read the begining you will find our location. It seems like the judgement is coming from heaven to the earth. Revelation is not an easy book to build doctrines. The rest of the bible is very plain and clear as to our home being a new earth.

    Rev. 7:1-3 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
     
  11. jcf

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    Paul was just stating his desire to be with the Lord, he was not teaching a doctrine of what happens when we die. We do find Paul teaching what happens when we die in 1 Thessalonians and when we will be with the Lord.

    1 Thess. 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
     
  12. PlainSense Bible believer

    PlainSense Bible believer
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    jcf,

    I disagree with you. I think you are trying to see problems where there are no problems. Since you seem to want to go into this in more depth than I originally thought you did, the following link is to an article of mine that expains what Scripture says about where we go when we die. I think it explains fairly clearly how/why the dying malefactor went to be with Christ in Paradise (yes, on the same day!). The article is fairly succinct but goes into more detail than can easily be posted here directly.


    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Article: Where do we go when we die? &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    PlainSense
     
  13. jcf

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    jcf,

    I disagree with you. I think you are trying to see problems where there are no problems. Since you seem to want to go into this in more depth than I originally thought you did, the following link is to an article of mine that expains what Scripture says about where we go when we die. I think it explains fairly clearly how/why the dying malefactor went to be with Christ in Paradise (yes, on the same day!). The article is fairly succinct but goes into more detail than can easily be posted here directly.


    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Article: Where do we go when we die? &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    PlainSense
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi PlainSense,

    The bible is very clear as to our inheritance and when we get it. Your use of the parable found in Luke to justify your doctrine is a common mistake made by many people. To teach that there is a reward or a punisment at the point of death would contradict all of Scripture and would nullify the resurrection to life at the second coming of Christ and the final judgment of the wicked.
     
  14. PlainSense Bible believer

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    Hi jcf,

    Nowhere does it say that this is a Parable (and even if it is I think we can trust the Lord Jesus Christ not to deceive us on this, or any other matter). The part in Luke 16:23 ff. is obviously yet to come. It is in the future. I am sorry if that didn't come across clearly in the article, I'll have to look at that.

    When the body dies and is buried (or cremated), the soul does not die, but it has to leave the body and go somewhere while it is waiting, in the case of believers, for the translation when the Lord comes to take His church out of the world (2 Thess ch 2, 1 Cor ch 15, 1 Thess ch 4), or, in the case of unbelievers, waiting for "the great white throne" judgement (Rev 20:11 ff.).

    PlainSense
     
  15. jcf

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    Hi jcf,

    Nowhere does it say that this is a Parable (and even if it is I think we can trust the Lord Jesus Christ not to deceive us on this, or any other matter). The part in Luke 16:23 ff. is obviously yet to come. It is in the future. I am sorry if that didn't come across clearly in the article, I'll have to look at that.

    When the body dies and is buried (or cremated), the soul does not die, but it has to leave the body and go somewhere while it is waiting, in the case of believers, for the translation when the Lord comes to take His church out of the world (2 Thess ch 2, 1 Cor ch 15, 1 Thess ch 4), or, in the case of unbelievers, waiting for "the great white throne" judgement (Rev 20:11 ff.).

    PlainSense
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi PlainSense,

    Nowhere in Scripture does it say the soul cannot die. It says just the opposite as a matter of fact is says there is only one who has immortallity and that is YAHWEH.

    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    1Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    The soul that sins, dies.

    Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    A brother's soul can also die.

    James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    We as abiding belivers are waiting for immortallity, eternal life of our own.

    Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

    1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Why people who say they study the bible can't see this I have no idea.
     
  16. PlainSense Bible believer

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    Interesting questions jcf. Here are some answers. I'll answer the last questions first.

    People who study the Bible, do see these things, and keep studying to find the answers.


    It is precisely because "the soul that sinneth... shall die" that we needed the Lord Jesus Christ to pay for our sin, so that we can have everlasting life.

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life ."

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life : and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Notice that believers have everlasting life NOW!. Yes our bodies will die (unless the Lord returns for His church before our physical death), but at His appearing we will be given new bodies that will be everlasting and have wonderful properties that our present ones don't possess. We will have a body just like the Lord's Resurrection body - read in John 20:18 ff. & Luke 24:36 ff. about the things the Lord could do in His new (Resuerrection) body. It was a physical body, with "flesh and bones" yet He could just appear in a locked room.

    I Corinthians 15:12-23,
    Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ [asleep, not dead - their souls were still alive!] are perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept [He is our "firstfruits" - we shall follow in the same way - see v.23].
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    Sin in a believers' life can cause illness or even death. Sometimes the word "soul" is used in the sense of the "whole person", such is the case here I believe. There is an example of this in the Old Testament:

    Exodus 31:14-15 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

    Despite the phraseology "that soul shall be cut off from among his people", what is being talked about here is physical death as a punishement for working on the sabbath. I believe the use of the word "soul" here is in the same context of the use of it in James 5:20.

    It's late here, so I'm going to bed now. Catch up with you again tomorrow.

    PlainSense
     
  17. jcf

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    My reply: Sometimes the bible is giving a clear answer but people keep studying so they can change the answer.


    My reply: Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice for the sin of the whole world but we know that the whole world will not be saved. The blood of Christ is a covers those who come under it's covering. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    My reply: whosoever believes in Him SHOULD not perish.

    My reply: The Father has life within Himself and has given this same to His Son. John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    My reply: Jesus gives us this life when we obey His words. Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    My reply: Jesus is the Good Shepherd, when we hear His voice/words and follow them He is giving us the life. John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    My reply: They that are Christ at His coming .

    My reply: The word (soul)in James 5:20 is the strong's number (#5590 psuche)which is the same word used in Matthew 10:28: Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul(soul #5590 psuche): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul(soul #5590 psuche)and body (body #4983 soma)in hell.

    My reply: Don't be decieved, there is only one who teaches you will not die. Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    PlainSense [/qb][/QUOTE]

    [ February 09, 2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: jcf ]
     
  18. billwald

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    Who disagrees with me that this earth is a wonderful place and would be perfect if Jesus returned to run it?
     
  19. jcf

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    Hi billwald,

    Amen and Amen...This world will be perfected when Jesus comes back and it will be our inheritance with Jesus.

    Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

    Psalms 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth.

    Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!''
     
  20. BobRyan

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    God bless you,
    PlainSense </font>[/QUOTE]Very good post!

    Also there is good ol' John 14

    Post-trib, Premillenial rapture is right - (as Rev 19-20 shows) but it must also hold to this important truth - God takes us up to heaven at the time of the resurrection of the saints in Rev 20.

    "The FIRST Resurrection"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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