Where is Hell? Part II

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Jan 22, 2003.

  1. 3AngelsMom

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    For the sake of quick loading, I am starting a new thread to carry this conversation:

    Where is Hell? Part I
     
  2. 3AngelsMom

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    Here is the last relevant post that I made:
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by neal4christ:
    Did you ever think about sleep being a Jewish idiom for death? So when the Bible says a man 'knew' his wife or 'lay' with his wife, it is talking about actual knowing and laying down? It is not sex? You have to be consistent if you start interpreting that way.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    An idiom? Are you serious? Do you know what that means?
    On the sex part, that would be God calling it that, considering that the BIBLE is INSPIRED!! The same applies to the sleep of death. GOD told them to write it that way because death is a sleep. It is in the Bible OVER 50 times. Do you want me to put them all in here? Will you believe the Bible?

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Do you have any proof of this cessation?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That they will never live again after the judgement in the Lake of Fire? Of course.

    Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
    Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Let's see:

    Stubble
    Burn them up
    Neither root nor branch
    Tread down the wicked
    ASHES under feet
    IN THE DAY He does it

    Stubble that is burnt up with neither root nor branch that can be tread down under our feet in the form of ashes IN THE DAY that God does this.

    Now unless you want to accept the 1000/1 day principle, you must admit that this passage is pretty clear that it WILL go out. Ashes are the result of fire that is out. If it is still burning it would be embers.

    Plus, according to Revelation, just after God finishes the judgement He creates a new Heaven and New Earth. Now unless He is planting a brand spankin new earth out in space, we can assume that He is not making a separate earth from this one. Especially since we are going to trample the wicked's ashes and then grow up as the calves of the stall. Sounds like eternity is starting in that prophecy.

    Also-

    Revelation 20:12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    The sea gave up the dead? If they were being resurrected at this time, they were lost, therefore shouldn't they be in HELL? See, here is just ONE of the inconsistencies with that doctrine.

    Death- people who have died and are not buried in a grave. ie ship wrecks, cremations, burn victims, etc.
    Hell- the grave. People who were buried. In the ground.

    So at the end of chapter 20 all the wicked are in the Lake of Fire. What happens next?

    Revelation 21: 1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Remember that there were no 'chapter' separations in the original, so chapter 20 and 21 ran right into one another. After the scene of the Lake of Fire, John immediately saw the NEW EARTH. Along with a promise from GOD. That HE will wipe away the tears, and there will not be anymore sorry or pain or crying.

    Now tell me, if my parents were lost people and I had just watched them get thrown into the Lake of Fire, don't you think I would be sad? If all those people are burning, how could He say that there is no more pain? Don't you think that fire would be painful?

    I believe that promise is true. There won't be anyone burning after the fire goes out. NO MORE PAIN.

    God Bless
     
  3. DHK

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    See my post on other thread.
    DHK
     
  4. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Firstly, 3AngelsMom, your proof text Mal 4:1-3, is figuratively speaking of the triumph of the righteous over their wicked persecutors and not of hell. Do you suppose that the wicked will literally be made ashes and that you will go stomp all over them? You argue that you could not be happy in heaven knowing that your parents were suffering in hell. Could you be happy trampling over the ashes of your parents? Regardless of your answer, the fact is that this passage is figurative of the righteous' triumph over persecutors and does not speak of hell.

    "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." The Bible in Basic English renders that phrase "Where their worm is ever living and the fire is not put out. (Mk 9:47-48)

    Not only does the fire in hell never go out, but their are worms that are eating the peoples' flesh, and those worms never die! Now if the small, weak little worms are not burned up, why would the people be? Why would worms be in hell eternally if people weren't?

    It is better to accept what the Bible say about God than to conjure up an idol in your head.

    [ January 23, 2003, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  5. BobRyan

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    #1. Rev 14:10 tells us that the burning - fiery judgment of God takes place "IN the presence of the Lamb AND of His saints" - this is IN context of judgment where "the smoke of their torment ascends up FOREVER". That is WHERE it takes place - IN His presence.

    #2. Rev 20 tells us that the LAKE of FIRE is visited upon mankind - of the 2nd resurrection - as they stand upon "the broad plain of the earth". It is THERE that we find the great white thrown judgment of Rev 20 and it is THERE that we see the Lake of Fire judgment of God visited upon the wicked raised in the 2nd resurrection as they stand upon "the Broad Plain of the Earth". These are those resurrected wicked of EVERY nation from the four corners of the earth (ALL the earth).

    So - it is ON the earth and it is IN the "presence of the Lamb AND of His saints" Rev 14:10.

    And GOD says "I take no pleasure in the death of ANYONE" Ezek 18:32

    AND neither will the saints take pleasure in the death of friends or loved ones - since they themselves will have perfect 1Cor 12 love for their neighbor and love for God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. 3AngelsMom

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    You think that over a third is little? IF you were taxed over a third of your income would you think it was little? More than a third, no matter how you slice it, is ALLOT.
    Ok, that's a happy idea and all, but where is that in the Bible? The 'soul' does not exist without the Spirit. 'God formed man from the dust of the ground and He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (ruwach)and man BECAME a living soul'. Now reverse the process. 'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruwach) shall return unto God who gave it.' The same spirit that made man is the spirit that returns to God.

    Well I can think of something worse than taking Scripture out of context, MAKING a doctrine up without any Scriptural support! Where, oh, where, did you get his doctrine? I'm sorry for the sarcasm but seriously, where does it say that at the 'end of the tribulation period' in that passage? This is beyond taking something out of context. I posted the WHOLE passage, and didn't take a WORD out of context. I pointed to words in the passage.
    Firstly, it was God that I quoted, and WHY would you think I was calling Him a liar? Yes, there will be a new heaven and a new earth, there is no dispute there, but based on the Jeramiah passage, there is evidence that God will cleanse this earth with fire and 'start new' on the same 'abyss' that was here at creation. Jeramiah 4:27. For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; [yet will I not make a full end.]

    So NOW we can be figurative? The sea here means THE SEA. The oceans, lakes, rivers, bodies of h2o. Death, COULD NOT mean the resurrected, because in this passage, is WHEN the dead are BEING resurrected. It HAD NOT taken place at this point. Hell, referring to those in hades, which is the Grave, finally we agree. All receiving their judgement of FIRE coming down out of heaven from God and devouring them. No tormenting them, devouring them. Forever and ever, is relative to the thing that it is referring to, and since wicked people will not have ANYTHING that is immortal, 'forever' for them is until they die. Just like Samuel, serving forever, and a slave serving his master forever, the fire will burn until they die.
    Firstly, this is not a failure on my part at all, on the contrary it seems to be your failure to believe that the Bible is true. NO MORE PAIN. ANYWHERE. PERIOD. It DOES NOT SAY no more tears IN HEAVEN. Let's look at it again:
    Revelation 21:4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Secondly, you say He is not 'cruel enough' to torture those in heaven, yet He IS 'cruel enough' to torture the countless millions for all of eternity.

    I'm sorry but that just doesn't make sense.

    And this doctrine has turned away more people from Christ than ANY OTHER doctrine!

    God Bless.
     
  7. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    My post feels lonely without a reply. :(
     
  8. neal4christ

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    You know what? The name of this thread sounds like a bad horror film sequel! :D

    Just trying to lighten up the mood a little!

    Neal
     
  9. DHK

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  10. Me2

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    Everyone stands at the Great White
    throne Judgement...

    Everyone..That is Your..."old Man".
    that is your cursed spirit before its thrown into the lake of fire...
    Everyone is thrown into the Lake..
    even your "old man"...never to come out..

    remember we get a new "Spirit"..
    The spirit of Jesus.

    difference being that you stand before the throne while your physically alive..
    and the rest are judged after their physical death..

    Me2
     
  11. 3AngelsMom

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    YOU KNOW???? Get a grip dude. You REFUSE to acknoweldge those passages of SCRIPTURE and you accuse ME of not liking the truth? The last statement you made MAKES NO SENSE. The BIBLE is TRUTH, not your opinion. Even if it is popular. The Bible interprets itself:

    Genisis 2:7. And the Lord God formed man of the *dust* of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the *breath of life*; and man became a living *soul*.

    *Dust* - aphar- 1) dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish 1a) dry or loose earth 1b) debris 1c) mortar 1d) ore
    *Breath of Life*-'nshamah'1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)
    *Soul* - 'nephesh' 1) soul, living being,1a) that which breathes, 1b) living being 1c) living being (with life in the blood).

    dust+breath=a living soul

    Now reverse the process:

    Ecc 12:7 Then shall the *dust* return to the earth as it was: and the *spirit* shall return unto God who gave it.

    *Dust* - aphar- the same as Genisis 2:7
    *Spirit* - ruwach- 1) wind, breath, spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death.

    dust-breath=dust!

    If you do not acknowledge these passages I will assume that you agree!

    Well then, by all means let me do that for you:

    CONTEXT: IN a letter written to Israel through the prophet Malachi. Various warnings and commandments to the people of Israel are issued. Yet in the last part of 3 the mood changes. Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
    Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
    Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

    Which walks us into the prophecy in chapter 4. THAT IS FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

    Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; FOR they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do THIS, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
    Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Enough context? Or should I post the whole book?

    UH, considering that I wrote it, I am fairly convinced that I read it. DID YOU READ IT?

    Ok, firstly your sarcasm here is SOOO not funny, and you are getting dangerously close to blasphemy here. NOT FOR ME???

    Is this not for me either?:
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    How about this?:
    Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

    And just for good measure:
    Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    AND don't forget some Context:
    Romans 15:1. We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 2. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. 3. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. 4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. 5. Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: 6. That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    EVERY WORD FROM 'In the beginning' to 'The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, AMEN' is FOR ME.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    IT IS GOD.

    I'm sorry, WHAT? God sent Elijah, HE WAS JOHN THE BAPTIST. (The 2 witnesses are the Old and New Testament.)
    Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
    Gee, that sounds like Malachi....

    Ok, so NOW that passage is referring to the "day of the Lord"? I thought it was for Israel? Either it IS for the whole world or it isn't, you have to make up your mind. Well, regardless of how you mind is made up, it is referring to the second coming. Not 'a 7 year tribulation'.
    Let's see, Revelation 6-19:
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    That is the only verse that says 'tribulation' and it is talking about people coming OUT of it, not being raptured before it. But I am sure you are going to say next that it is referring to those who were saved DURING the trib, right? Well I will go ahead and answer that now, and save you the trouble:
    Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
    The context there is the 7 last plagues before Christ's return, and the first resurrection.

    Firstly, I quoted the entire chapter of Malachi 4, that is IN context. Secondly, I did NOT make Him say something He did not say. I pointed to what HE DID say. Thirdly HOW do YOU know what HE means? If you are comparing His Word to my opinion, THEY AGREE. If you are comparing my opinion to what YOU think He MEANS, then this argument is moot.

    Ok, either you didn't read the whole passage or you are intentionally refusing to accept this:
    Jeramiah 4:23. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light...
    My people:
    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
    WE are His People.

    But that is not what you said before. You said 'they were ALREADY resurrected at this point'.

    The 'hell' referred to here (Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.)is hades: the grave, death, hell. The passages that say 'worm dieth not, fire is not quenched (Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.) has a different word there 'geenna - This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. They kept it on fire at all times to control the gases, and it was INFESTED with worms. It was used as a 'discraceful' place to be buried if you were a criminal.

    NO, not EVERYTHING is relative. Do you know what 'relative' means? Not the 'theory of relativity' but the word relative. It means 'that which relates to'. So if forever in Samuel, means until he died (for he is not still in the temple NOW) and forever in the Levitical law for slaves meant until he died (for a slave is not still serving his master NOW), then forever in referrence to a MORTAL wicked man, means UNTIL he dies.

    I'm sorry, did you want to back that up with scripture? WHERE does it say that the wicked will be raised immortal?
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    MEN are judged not 'spirits'.
    Ok, WHERE does the Bible say that? Not the tormented part, I know where that is, the 'immortal' part.

    I am going to assume here that you are just being rude because I don't know of any Christian that would tell someone to 'throw out your bible' and actually mean it.

    Never does it say ANYWHERE that the wicked will have the ability to live forever, YOU believe a lie.

    Ok, if there is a new heaven (the whole universe outside our planet) and a new earth (either a new one entirely or a new earth on the 'abyss' of this one) and the 'old' things are passed away, WHERE are the wicked? If ALL things are new, and there is NOTHING left that is from the 'old' universe, WHERE are the wicked?

    The countless millions who rejected Christ as Saviour, rejected the gift of ETERNAL LIFE, therefore it would be IMMPOSSIBLE for them to be LIVING in hell. The wages of sin is DEATH. NOT eternal life in hell.

    This doctine is demonstrably wrong.

    [ January 23, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

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    Scripture?
     
  13. neal4christ

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    3AngelsMom,

    What about Gen. 1:30? The same term in 2:7 for "living soul" is used in 1:30 and translated 'life'. It is the exact same Hebrew.

    So how then is man different than an animal? They both have a "living soul".

    Another thing you assume is that the breath God breathed out was the spirit we have. Did you ever think about it simply being God's breath that gives life?

    Neal

    [ January 23, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
     
  14. 3AngelsMom

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    It means the same thing. BREATH. The force that causes simple matter to be a living thing, is FROM God. If you don't believe this, you need to look into evolutionary science.

    That is NOT what the Bible says. It says 'man BECAME a living soul'. Man does not HAVE a living soul, man IS a living soul. That statement is not made (as far as I know) about animals. They are living 'creatures'. But as I said before, animals CAN be inhabited by 'spirits'. The donkey that talked, the pigs that had demons cast into them, and I feel certain there have been other instances that God controlled animals, and demons controlled animals as well.

    The breath that God breathed IS the Spirit we have! If you are alive, YOU have this spirit!
    That is what the Bible says. God breathed into Adam and he BECAME a living soul. The word translated as 'spirit' and 'breath' and 'life' are all from the same thing, GOD.

    The Holy Spirit inhabits the 'living soul' of man. This same spirit is in ALL living things. It is what animates man and animal.

    You proved that to yourself in your study of the word. Why it was translated 'life' in that instance is just ONE of the many places that the Bible translators will have to explain when they stand before God. If it was 'breath of life' in 2:7, it is the same breath in 1:30.
     
  15. neal4christ

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    Ummm...no it doesn't. It means soul, life, living being, not breath. You are getting your Hebrew words confused.

    Huh? I am a huge proponet of a literal six-day creation and a young earth! This is one of my favorite areas of study, and you have the nerve to say that! If I remember correctly, you were the one who was trying to make each of those days in Gen. 1 a thousand years, not taking God at His Word, and showing an evolutionary influence on your thinking.

    Ummmm....yes it does. Look at the Hebrew. It is the same in Gen. 1:30 and Gen. 2:7.

    Again, look at the Hebrew.

    Again, you have very interesting theology. So man is really no different that animals, right? That is what it seems you are gettting at.

    I agree that both man and animal have a soul, i.e. life. But how are me made in the 'image' of God that makes us different? We have a spiritual nature! I am sorry if you don't understand this.

    Neal
     
  16. 3AngelsMom

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  17. neal4christ

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    I quit. Have at it. I can't carry on this conversation any longer with you because it is not fruitful and I am getting angry with it. I was not trying to blatantly misrepresent you as you imply, I am sorry if you feel that way. I guess you are saying that animals did not become living beings, but last time I looked my dog and cat were alive. I agree that we both, man and animals, get life from God. However, we have a spirit that animals do not, created in God's image. Oh well, have fun and maybe I will see you around somewhere else.

    Neal

    [ January 23, 2003, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
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    3AngelsMom,
    Please explain this verse:

    1Thes.5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  19. 3AngelsMom

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    DHK,

    Reply to this, and I will AGAIN explain that verse.

    YOU KNOW???? Get a grip dude. You REFUSE to acknoweldge those passages of SCRIPTURE and you accuse ME of not liking the truth? The last statement you made MAKES NO SENSE. The BIBLE is TRUTH, not your opinion. Even if it is popular. The Bible interprets itself:

    Genisis 2:7. And the Lord God formed man of the *dust* of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the *breath of life*; and man became a living *soul*.

    *Dust* - aphar- 1) dry earth, dust, powder, ashes, earth, ground, mortar, rubbish 1a) dry or loose earth 1b) debris 1c) mortar 1d) ore
    *Breath of Life*-'nshamah'1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)
    *Soul* - 'nephesh' 1) soul, living being,1a) that which breathes, 1b) living being 1c) living being (with life in the blood).

    dust+breath=a living soul

    Now reverse the process:

    Ecc 12:7 Then shall the *dust* return to the earth as it was: and the *spirit* shall return unto God who gave it.

    *Dust* - aphar- the same as Genisis 2:7
    *Spirit* - ruwach- 1) wind, breath, spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death.

    dust-breath=dust!

    If you do not acknowledge these passages I will assume that you agree!

    Well then, by all means let me do that for you:

    CONTEXT: IN a letter written to Israel through the prophet Malachi. Various warnings and commandments to the people of Israel are issued. Yet in the last part of 3 the mood changes. Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
    Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
    Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

    Which walks us into the prophecy in chapter 4. THAT IS FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

    Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; FOR they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do THIS, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
    Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    Enough context? Or should I post the whole book?

    UH, considering that I wrote it, I am fairly convinced that I read it. DID YOU READ IT?

    Ok, firstly your sarcasm here is SOOO not funny, and you are getting dangerously close to blasphemy here. NOT FOR ME???

    Is this not for me either?:
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    How about this?:
    Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

    And just for good measure:
    Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    AND don't forget some Context:
    Romans 15:1. We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 2. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. 3. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. 4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. 5. Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: 6. That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    EVERY WORD FROM 'In the beginning' to 'The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you, AMEN' is FOR ME.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    IT IS GOD.

    I'm sorry, WHAT? God sent Elijah, HE WAS JOHN THE BAPTIST. (The 2 witnesses are the Old and New Testament.)
    Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
    Gee, that sounds like Malachi....

    Ok, so NOW that passage is referring to the "day of the Lord"? I thought it was for Israel? Either it IS for the whole world or it isn't, you have to make up your mind. Well, regardless of how you mind is made up, it is referring to the second coming. Not 'a 7 year tribulation'.
    Let's see, Revelation 6-19:
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    That is the only verse that says 'tribulation' and it is talking about people coming OUT of it, not being raptured before it. But I am sure you are going to say next that it is referring to those who were saved DURING the trib, right? Well I will go ahead and answer that now, and save you the trouble:
    Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
    The context there is the 7 last plagues before Christ's return, and the first resurrection.

    Firstly, I quoted the entire chapter of Malachi 4, that is IN context. Secondly, I did NOT make Him say something He did not say. I pointed to what HE DID say. Thirdly HOW do YOU know what HE means? If you are comparing His Word to my opinion, THEY AGREE. If you are comparing my opinion to what YOU think He MEANS, then this argument is moot.

    Ok, either you didn't read the whole passage or you are intentionally refusing to accept this:
    Jeramiah 4:23. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light...
    My people:
    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
    WE are His People.

    But that is not what you said before. You said 'they were ALREADY resurrected at this point'.

    The 'hell' referred to here (Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.)is hades: the grave, death, hell. The passages that say 'worm dieth not, fire is not quenched (Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.) has a different word there 'geenna - This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. They kept it on fire at all times to control the gases, and it was INFESTED with worms. It was used as a 'discraceful' place to be buried if you were a criminal.

    NO, not EVERYTHING is relative. Do you know what 'relative' means? Not the 'theory of relativity' but the word relative. It means 'that which relates to'. So if forever in Samuel, means until he died (for he is not still in the temple NOW) and forever in the Levitical law for slaves meant until he died (for a slave is not still serving his master NOW), then forever in referrence to a MORTAL wicked man, means UNTIL he dies.

    I'm sorry, did you want to back that up with scripture? WHERE does it say that the wicked will be raised immortal?
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    MEN are judged not 'spirits'.
    Ok, WHERE does the Bible say that? Not the tormented part, I know where that is, the 'immortal' part.

    I am going to assume here that you are just being rude because I don't know of any Christian that would tell someone to 'throw out your bible' and actually mean it.

    Never does it say ANYWHERE that the wicked will have the ability to live forever, YOU believe a lie.

    Ok, if there is a new heaven (the whole universe outside our planet) and a new earth (either a new one entirely or a new earth on the 'abyss' of this one) and the 'old' things are passed away, WHERE are the wicked? If ALL things are new, and there is NOTHING left that is from the 'old' universe, WHERE are the wicked?

    The countless millions who rejected Christ as Saviour, rejected the gift of ETERNAL LIFE, therefore it would be IMMPOSSIBLE for them to be LIVING in hell. The wages of sin is DEATH. NOT eternal life in hell.

    This doctine is demonstrably wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]

    [ January 28, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]
     
  20. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom
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    Seriously, have your eyes checked. I didn't say animals didn't become 'living beings' I said they didn't become living SOULS.

    If you can't handle this, then go. I will understand. I have walked away from discussions before. Just remember: The truth is out there. Keep an open mind, or you will MISS it.
    Take Care.
     

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