Where is Jesus during the 3 days b4 his resurrection?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ventin, Dec 19, 2001.

  1. ventin

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    can anybody share some light?
    Protestants says in hell, quoting 1Peter :confused:
     
  2. Bro. Curtis

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    1Peter what...?
     
  3. ventin

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    1peter 3:19
     
  4. Bro. Curtis

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    Thank you.

    I use the King James Study Bible, by the Thomas Nelson publishers. They support Christ's descent into hades. But 1Peter chapter 3 seems only to alude to hell. I will keep studying this & get back to this thread. If it's still open... ;) ;)
     
  5. Glory Bound

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    I think the notion that Christ spent the 3 days in Hell witnessing to the "spirits in prison" is very hard to support.

    First, I don't think the word "prison" represents "Hell". Hell is a place of eternal punishment, not a "holding place" like a prison.

    Second, I don't see any real evidence that this activity occurs during the 3-day span between dying on the cross and the resurrection.

    This is a tough passage, and I rather take a view that it's not clear to me exactly what it means, rather than create a scenario that can't be supported by the words. So I may not have the answer, but I believe the suggestion that Jesus went into Hell to preach is pretty far-fetched based on the context.

    Just my opinion, mind you. [​IMG]
     
  6. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ventin:
    can anybody share some light?
    Protestants says in hell, quoting 1Peter :confused:
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
     
  7. ddavis

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    Careful ddavis what you are trying to communicate, because it just doesn't come across as you might want it to be. [Text edidted by Barnabas, BB Administrator] :(

    [ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
     
  8. Bro. Curtis

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Very good post!!!!!
     
  9. ventin

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    so where is paradise? :confused:
     
  10. Chris Temple

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    In the presence of God.
     
  11. ddavis

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    Uh heard that in church from the pulpit, but still can't figure out what the problem is??????? :confused: :confused: :confused: would you please e-mail and let me know what the problem with the post was? thank you.

    ventin: so where is paradise?

    Paradise was the place where the o.t. saints were next to hell and there was a great gulf fix to seperate the two. The Lord preached to those in hell then stepped across and took the o.t. saints out of paradise to heaven according to ephesians 4:8. Then therefore expanding hell and vacating paradise.

    :D but i do agree with chris though.
     
  12. Glory Bound

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:

    Paradise was the place where the o.t. saints were next to hell and there was a great gulf fix to seperate the two. The Lord preached to those in hell then stepped across and took the o.t. saints out of paradise to heaven according to ephesians 4:8. Then therefore expanding hell and vacating paradise.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    :confused: Okay. I don't understand how the scenario detailed about can be drawn from the verse quoted. Can someone explain this for me? :confused:
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:
    Okay. I don't understand how the scenario detailed about can be drawn from the verse quoted. Can someone explain this for me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The contention is that the OT place of the dead was called "Sheol". It was divided into two parts - for the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead, with a great gulf fixed between so no one could change places. This is from the story Jesus taught of the Rich Man and Lazarus the beggar in Luke.

    The "good" side for the elect was called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. That is where the righteous went. They could see the "bad" side for the non-elect (hades) a place of terrible torment.

    Jesus promised the Thief "Today you will be with me in Paradise". That's where Jesus went, to the souls of the just who were captive and waiting for the redemption of the cross to save them.

    Jesus preached His wonderful redemption to them, then "led captivity captive and ascended on high", and, in His absence from earth, left gifts for His own to have during this era.

    Today, if a believer dies, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Direct to heaven. Unsaved still go to Hades.

    Then, at the last judgment, "death and hades" (hell in the archaic KJV) will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. That is what we think of as "hell".

    Controversial view and some good (albeit confused) BB members do not believe this. Hope this explanation helps.
     
  14. Glory Bound

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    Dr. Bob,

    Thanks for taking the time to explain this concept.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    The contention is that the OT place of the dead was called "Sheol". It was divided into two parts - for the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead, with a great gulf fixed between so no one could change places. This is from the story Jesus taught of the Rich Man and Lazarus the beggar in Luke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I understand the source for this concept - and it's not new to me.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    The "good" side for the elect was called Paradise or Abraham's Bosom. That is where the righteous went. They could see the "bad" side for the non-elect (hades) a place of terrible torment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I thought it was the other way around . . . didn't the rich man see Lazarus, with no evidence that Lazarus saw him?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    Jesus promised the Thief "Today you will be with me in Paradise". That's where Jesus went, to the souls of the just who were captive and waiting for the redemption of the cross to save them.

    Jesus preached His wonderful redemption to them, then "led captivity captive and ascended on high", and, in His absence from earth, left gifts for His own to have during this era.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Okay, this is where I still don't see where this idea comes from. You say "that's where Jesus went...", and that he preached to them there. How do you know this? I realize that some believe this, but I don't know where scripture endorses this viewpoint. At least not very clearly. :confused:
     
  15. DocCas

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    The idea of a "second compartment of sheol" where the OT saints were confined prior to the death of Christ is a Protestant fiction roughtly akin to the purgatory myth of the RCC.

    The theory denies some very basic tenets of the bible.

    The first is that Christ was "a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8. As the bible clearly says Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and no OT saint predates the foundation of the world, Christ was already slain prior to the death of any OT saint! Christ's atonement is in the heavenly Holy of Holies which exists in eternity, not in time!

    The second is the very context of Ephesians Chapter 4, which is our being "given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." If we compare that with the origin of the quote, Psalm 68, we see a very different context. Psalm 68 is talking about the "hosts" which God is to set against the martial powers of the world, in order to protect His people and allow them to triumph. Note that in the context of Psalm 68, those who are taken captive are the martial powers of the world, who are the enemies of the people of God, and thus of God Himself! Ephesians is saying that we can have the same victory in Christ as the OT saints had in Jehovah! Not by our own efforts but because of the unspeakable gifts which God has arrayed against the worldly powers of today, just as in the OT era!

    Those who try to claim those who are "captive" in Ephesians are the OT saints miss the whole point of Psalm 68, which is talking about the worldly enemies of God's people, not the OT saints! Those careless expositors try to equate the "captives" as both the enemies of the people of God and the people of God at the same time! And that is very poor exegeses!

    Are there some good people who hold that view? Well, they may be nice people but they certainly are not good at understanding the bible! [​IMG]

    [ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  16. Dr. Bob

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    As you can see, there are two opinions. Dr. Cassidy knows that the OT origin of a phrase that is used "prophetically" in the NT need not have ANYTHING to do with its fulfillment.

    Example: Text in Hosea 11:1-2 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Historical context would not give an inkling of this as Messianic. Not one person saw anything in this text. BUT Matthew said it was fulfilled <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Same holds with Ephesians 4:8 which takes an OT text totally OUT of its context and uses it as fulfillment of prophecy <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Jesus led "captivity captive", taking the elect from Paradise to Heaven. Then gave His Spirit and other "gifts" to the believers left alive on earth (us!!)

    BTW, if one were to equate Paradies with the Heaven as revealed in the Word, then Hades is right there too! (Remember the story Jesus used - they were visible to each other)
     
  17. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    As you can see, there are two opinions. Dr. Cassidy knows that the OT origin of a phrase that is used "prophetically" in the NT need not have ANYTHING to do with its fulfillment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a difference between a further fulfillment of a prophecy, I.E., Israel being called the "son" of God which was called out of Egypt, and the NT expanding the typology to include the Son of God, who came through the Nation of Israel, and is the ultimate fulfillment of the "seed" of Abraham, and taking a text completely out of context to try to prove a theory that has no scriptural support. Nowhere in the bible does it say the OT saints did not go to heaven. In fact, there are two examples, one before the Law, and one under the Law, who both went up to God! The whole "two compartment of sheol" theory is a very bad example of exegeses! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>BTW, if one were to equate Paradies with the Heaven as revealed in the Word, then Hades is right there too! (Remember the story Jesus used - they were visible to each other)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Complete non sequiter! Where was the body of Lazarus? Where was the body of the rich man? Both bodies were in the grave, NOT in paradise! If their eyes were in the grave, how could they see anything but the top of the coffin or burial wrappings? It is obvious that the "eyes" which they were seeing with were spiritual eyes, and, just as physical eyes see physical things, spiritual eyes see spiritual things! It was a spiritual gulf, not a physical gulf, that was affixed between heaven and hell! They were not in the same place, but separated by a great, uncrossable, spiritual gulf!

    Gotta learn to think outside the box! [​IMG]
     
  18. Dr. Ron Cook

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    2 Corinthians 5:6&8 give us an understanding that to be in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. John Gill (Great Baptist writer) says, "The interval between death, and the resurrection, is a state of absence from the body, during which time the soul is disembodied, and exists in a separate state; not in a state of inactivity and sleep, for that would not be desirable, but of happiness and glory, enjoying the presense of God, and praising of Him, believing and waiting for the resurrection of the body, when both will be united together again." Now if this be the case, O.T. as well as N.T. saints go be be with the Father upon their death. The three days after Christ's death were a time when His mortal body spent in the dead. His sipirt was with the Father. His resurrection united the body and soul to ascend unto the Father. The doctrine of limbus patrum is a Catholic doctrine that has been bought and sold to most churches...it is not scripturally sound.
     
  19. S. Baptist

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    Enoch and Elijah both went to heaven before Jesus "paid for sin".

    Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the MT of transfiguration.

    We know that nothing "unclean" can enter Heaven, and Jesus paid for the sins of the OT saints.

    Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, (OT)


    If Jesus's sacrifice applied "from the foundation of the world", then why didn't Lazarus also go to "heaven" along with Enoch, Elijah, instead of Abraham's bosom?

    I think it's clear, we not dealing with a "straight down the road", "clear cut law", but one that has "exceptions".
     
  20. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
    If Jesus's sacrifice applied "from the foundation of the world", then why didn't Lazarus also go to "heaven" along with Enoch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He did. Paradise is heaven!

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    And Abraham's Bosom, which is his chest, is where ever Abraham was, and Abraham was in Paradise/Heaven! See John 1:18 and John 13:23 to explain the meaning of being in someone's bosom. [​IMG]

    [ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     

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