Where is Purgatory In the Bible/Why needed?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    can one prove it by the canon of scriptures, the 66 books?

    If hold to it, why is it necessary IF we are saved grace and faith alone, as per the Bible?
     
    #1 Yeshua1, Feb 21, 2013
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  2. Walter

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    Luke 23:43 – As a Baptist, I would argue that because Jesus sent the thief crucified next to Jesus right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. Also, because the term is found nowhere in the Bible (but then neither is Incarnation or Trinity). I remember a Catholic explaining that when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He wasn't talking about heaven. Paradise comes from the Hebrew "sheol," which meant the place of the 'righteous dead'. That is where the dead remained but were headed eventually to Heaven at our Lord's resurrection. Also, there is not punctuation in the original writing of this. When Jesus said to the thief “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” So, Jesus could have been saying, 'I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise. Remember, even if the thief did go straight to Heaven it does not disprove purgatory anybody who might be fully sanctified in this life– maybe by the thiefs bloody and repentant death – it is possible that he would have been ready for Heaven. Catholics believe that without holiness no one will see the Lord. We see Purgatory as a need for final sanctification to have holiness before God, this is ongoing in our walk with the Lord here on earth and, if that does not happen during our time here then there is a transitional state of purgatory.


    Rev. 21:27 says that nothing un-clean is admitted to Heaven. I was told that this word 'un-clean (the greek word koinon) means a 'spiritual corruption'. Any inclination toward sin would be un-clean and the need for purification. The atonement by Jesus on the cross existence of Purgatory shows me how merciful God really is. Some on the board will say, 'wasn't Jesus' sacrifice enough? Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost' It is absolutely true that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.

    Also, keep in mind that if this was an 'invention' of the Catholic Church, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?
     
  3. Walter

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    I meant to mention also: 1 Cor 3:10-15, the various foundations, some burned up, loss suffered, but still saved.
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    Jesus said that we will be with him at death or his second coming, Paul said absent from body would be present with the Lord...

    NOT in the Bible, Jesus and Apsotles ALL taught absent from the body meant being before God...

    Again, what would be the purpose for it , as the blood of jesus cleanses us from ALL sins?
     
  5. Walter

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    If your soul is absent from the body, through death, it IS present with the Lord in the particular judgment which occurs at death. What happens then depends on the state of one's soul and God's judgment. It certainly is no argument against purgatory.

    Also, re-read my prior post which answers the question as to 'jesus cleanses us from ALL sins' so why purgatory?
     
  6. DHK

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    Apparently you haven't looked or haven't read. There is and has been great opposition to this doctrine throughout history.

    Belief in this doctrine is a denial of the sufficiency of the blood of Christ to atone for all our sins. Either Christ paid the penalty for them all or he did not. The doctrine is therefore blasphemous for it takes away from the efficacy of the blood of Christ.
    When Christ died on the cross he said "It is finished" (John 19:30). There is nothing more to be done. The work of salvation was complete. With his death and resurrection he had complete victory over sin, death, hell and Satan. He offers salvation, complete forgiveness of sin to all who come to him by faith. Salvation is free to be accepted by faith alone. Once accepted he gives eternal life. If one has eternal life he does not go through Purgatory.
    "He that has the son has life; he that has not the son has not life."
    "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on his name."
    --I don't hope I will go to heaven; I know I will, and I know I will go straight there, for this is the promise of God. I know I have eternal life, not Purgatory.

    Purgatory denies the efficacy of the blood of Christ and makes him a liar.
     
  7. annsni

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  8. Revmitchell

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    G3857

    παράδεισος

    paradeisos

    par-ad'-i-sos

    Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.
     
  9. KJVRICH

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    Agreed ! This is one of the many reasons I left the catholic church, alot of their teaching is not only unbiblical, but anti-biblical. In my opinion you see a
    constant theme of Jesus Christ not being enough in the RCC. prayer to God in Jesus name is not enough, you need to pray to mary and the saints, and say novenas, confession of sins to God/Jesus is not enough, you need a priest, faith in Jesus Christ is not enough, you need sacraments(works) for salvation, the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins is not enough,you need purgatory, the Bible is not enough,you also need "traditions".To me this plays right into what satan wants.....to keep focus off Jesus and on everything else....satan whispers in the ears of those who will listen.....Jesus is not enough........
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    Which shows, again, that Rome does not really believe in saved by grace and faith ALONE, for they still have us saved by a combo of God grasce and man works together to save a sinner!
     
  11. Walter

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    The doctrine of Purgatory in no way denies the efficacy of Christ's shed blood on the cross for our sins. That is simply mis-representing what the Church teaches. It is YOUR conclusion based on your pre-conceived ideas of what catholicism is.

    St. Augustine, one of the greatest doctors of the Church, said the doctrine of Purgatory "has been received from the Fathers and it is observed by the Universal Church.'' True, the word "Purgatory'' does not appear in the Bible, but a place where lesser sins are purged away and the soul is saved "yet so as by fire,'' is mentioned. (1 Cor. 3:15). Also, the Bible distinguishes between those who enter Heaven straightaway, calling them "the church of the firstborn'' (Heb. 12:23), and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them "the spirits of the just made perfect.'' (Heb. 12:23). Christ Himself stated: "Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.'' (Matt. 5 :26).
     
  12. DHK

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    Yes it does. His blood purged or cleansed us from all sin. There is no more purging of sin. Jesus paid it all. Purgatory contradicts his death on the cross. A belief in purgatory is unbelief in the purpose of the death of Christ on the Cross. Why believe that Christ died for our sins at all if you have Purgatory to "purge" us from our sins. This very belief is a denial of the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
    --No condemnation, no purgation needed.
    There is no universal church.
    This is a description of the bema seat of Christ, or the Judgment Seat of Christ. There is no Purgatory here. It is the works that go through the fire to see what kind of works they are. No one is lost. No one goes through fire. You won't find that in this passage. It says that some are saved, not from fire, yet so as by fire--the fire that the works have passed through. In other words they lose reward, not salvation. There is no indication that anyone loses salvation, nor goes to Purgatory. How can that be. All are already in heaven. This is a heavenly scene. Once in heaven, always in heaven. What kind of god do you believe in that would cast his own children out of heaven?
    You are reading things into that passage that are not there. Look at a more literal translation and see if you can come to the same conclusion:

    Hebrews 12:23 the universal gathering; and to [the] assembly of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to [the] spirits of just [men] made perfect;
    --There is no church in heaven. You deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ who "purged" us or cleansed us from all our sins with his shed blood. This verse speaks of those who have been saved or already cleansed by the blood. They will be in heaven, perfect and complete in Christ. That has already happened on earth. "Made perfect" is past tense.
    And this has to do with what?
    It is non sequitor.
    Purgatory is a denial of scripture.
    IT is anti-scripture.
    It is blasphemous.
    It is a denial of the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
    If you believe in this doctrine you may as well not believe that Christ never died for your sins.

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as *he* is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    Jesus yelled that it was finished, that his death ont he cross FULLY appeased the wrath of God towards sinners...

    Why deny the very words of christ Himself, or was he mistaked that payment was sufficient to FULLY and FOREVER save all who came unto Him?
     
  14. Zenas

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    By qualifing any forgiveness of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Jesus was suggesting that certain sins can be forgiven in the age to come. So where would this take place? Certainly not in Heaven and not in Hell. It must be Purgatory where this after-death forgiveness takes place.
     
  15. Walter

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    (Deleted post, I already said what I was going to say here in my first post on this thread)
     
    #15 Walter, Feb 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2013
  16. DHK

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    Fair enough, but at least consider some things:
    I realize that RCC doctrine states that Purgatory is for believers on their way to heaven, and therefore not for the unbelievers. Those that are there are "the saved," as we would refer to them.
    Secondly, it has to do with the "purging" of the more serious sins. That has to do with sanctification.

    However, the Bible doesn't change its teaching on the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. It is sufficient to cleanse us from all our sins so that no more cleansing is needed. We are washed in the blood; our sins forgiven: past, present and future. Once one comes to Christ they are eternally secure in the hand of God. The penalty of their sins have been paid for which makes purgatory a useless invention of mankind.
    When one comes to Christ he is given the gift of eternal life, which also makes purgatory a useless invention. If we have eternal life; we have eternal life. It is not partial. There are no stop overs.

    Concerning sin, all sin is the same. There is no difference between mortal and venial sins. This again is a man-made invention of the RCC. Just one sin is great enough to make you guilty enough to send you to hell. But it is ultimately the rejection of Christ that is the reason you go to hell or rather one goes to hell.
    Look at Scripture:

    Romans 3:23: "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
    Here sin is defined as coming short of God's glory. We all do that. We come short. The verb "come short" means "to miss the mark." We miss the mark of God's holiness. No man is as holy as God. We fail. We sin. Therefore we cannot enter heaven. Nothing that defiles can enter heaven. How can a sinner like you or me stand before a holy God? We cannot. That is why Christ died and paid the penalty by shedding his blood on the cross. He paid the penalty for all our sins. There is no need for purgatory.

    I John 3:4 "For whosoever sins transgresses the law; for sin is a transgression of the law."
    There is a fairly straightforward definition of sin--breaking the law. It is breaking any law. To lie is just as bad as it is to murder. Why? It is breaking God's law. The consequences may be different but in both sins the law is broken. God does not differentiate. Breaking the law is sin. Sin is sin. It is breaking the law. There is no difference between venial and mortal. Any sin and all sin is great enough to send a person to hell.

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    --If you should keep the entire law all of your life and just commit one sin, then you are just as guilty as if you had broken them all. If you lie (bear false witness), you are just as guilty as if you had murdered and committed adultery. All sin is breaking the law.

    James continues:
    James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    IOW, one sin is not greater than any other sin.

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    --Put in other words here Paul is saying that if one does not continue in all things, from birth to death, that are written in the law, he is cursed. IOW, his life must be perfect without sin from birth to death. But our lives are not perfect. In fact we sin every day. We need a Savior who can take away that sin and purge us completely from that sin.

    Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    --It is Christ that did that, and he is the only one that could. For he alone was sinless. He was the sinless sacrifice--the just dying for the unjust that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit. He was the only one that could bring us to God. He did not bring us to purgatory, but to God--straight to God (1Pet.3:18).

    David was a murderer and an adulterer. He knew he would go straight to paradise and see his infant child. There would be no purgatory for him. He was also called "a man after God's own heart." God had forgiven him of all his sins. Those sins did not cause him to lose his salvation. When he prayed for forgiveness he prayed. "Restore unto me the joy of my salvation." That is significant in that he didn't pray, "restore to me my salvation." He knew he had salvation. It was the joy that was missing, and once he repented of those sins he would regain that joy back. He never lost his salvation, not even with murder and adultery. There was and is no Purgatory.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    NO!

    that was a peculiar sin not able to be repeated, as the pharisees saw and attributed works of God to works of satan!

    jesus was saying to THEM they were forever to be lost in their sins, as they were blind to Him as the Son of God/messiah...

    ALL who reject jesus will be in hell, all whio accept heaven, no middle ground, no exemptions!
     
  18. Zenas

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    Uh, YES.
    Agreed! So far you're on the right track.
    Agreed again! You do seem to understand the context of this discourse.
    We're still on the same page, although you seem to adhere to the heretical doctrine of OSAS. We can disagree on that and still be friends.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. I guess you are referring to Purgatory when you say "no middle ground," but I'm totally clueless about the "exemptions" thing. However, whatever doctrine you're advancing here you did not get from Matthew 12.

    I will repeat the material part of v. 32 here:
    So when you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit it can't be forgiven, period. Not in this age. Not in the age to come. However, when Jesus added "not in the age to come", He had to be implying that some sins could be forgiven in the age to come. Otherwise what He said here would have been pure verbiage that added nothing to the understanding and actually served to confuse the issue. Clearly Jesus meant that some sins could be forgiven in the age to come BUT NOT THE SIN OF BLASPHEMY.
     

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