Where is Spirit Baptism in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Jul 16, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

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    If some see it in Romans 6, then is that the only passage, and how does one get from water baptism to spirit baptism meant by Paul?
     
  2. jbh28

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    Matt. 3:11, "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
    Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."￾
    Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
    John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."
    Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
    Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    What is Spirit Baptism?

    What does it do?

    You have never heard of Spirit baptism?

    How could you comment on a thread about it, if you do not know what it is?

    There are more verses on it....look for them.
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Jul 16, 2014
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  4. convicted1

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    We've pounded scripture upon scripture to you.....

    Now, I know this is a GI-Normous task I ask, but you tell us what it is...WITH SCRIPTURE......



    I think I might smell smoke.....
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    This is a root issue. While we all learn things second hand from time to time by asking a question and getting an answer , it cannot be said that we have really learned anything if we do not check it out for ourself.

    When someone takes an answer and then searches for themselves if it is true or not....then they can respond with some conviction because they know;

    the word or term being discussed

    what the teaching means

    where the teaching is found in scripture

    what is the issue surrounding it

    what are some objections to the teaching

    what are some abuses of the teaching

    who teaches wrong about it

    what are the results of correct teaching

    what are the results on false teaching

    The scripture should be the rule for any teaching of course so if a person cannot use some scripture, or quote a link or sermon that offers what they believe scripture says....it is useless and unfounded speculation

    that leaves you with;


    I think that..... rather than



    3 For what saith the scripture?
     
  6. kyredneck

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    IMO, all of these above have to do with 'the clothing with power from on high', which eventually ceased, and is not what is intended in Ro 6, which is being 'placed into Christ'. It can happen, and does, to one without them even being conscious of it.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    The baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with individuals per se at all. It is an act of God only performed upon the institutional "house of God." When I say "institutional" I am referring to the PUBLIC place of worship where there are a qualified and ordained ministry, with qualified and ordained ordinances, that is a "house of prayer." Every "house of God" in scripture is characterized by these PUBLIC QUALIFIED ministry and ordinances:

    1. The Tabernacle house of God - Exodus 40:35-37 - immersed and filled
    2. The Temple house of God - 2 Chron. 7:1-3 - immersed and filled
    3. The congregational house of God - Acts 2:1-3 - immersed and filled

    The expression "house of God" occurs 88 times in all of Scripture. Prior to 1 Tim. 3:15 it is NEVER applied to anything other than a PUBLIC INSTITUTION with PUBLIC ORDINANCES and a PUBLIC MINISTRY. In 1 Tim. 3:15 it is contextually identified with a PUBLIC MINISTRY (1 Tim. 3:1-13) who administer qualified public ordinances.

    These facts are incontrovertible and cannot be HONESTLY denied.

    Furthermore, every single solitary text in the gospel which promises this baptism is given ONLY to a PLURALITY of already water baptized believers (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5) and on Pentecost it is given only to a PLURALITY of water baptized believers (Acts 1:20-21; 2:1; 38).

    Those who attempt to apply it to "in Christ" in regard to "spiritual union" are preaching "another gospel" for the following reasons:

    1. There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ for anyone at any time BUT the baptism in the Spirit is FUTURE and UNFULFILLED in the gospels until Acts 2. Those who argue it was already fulfilled before the world began are making the future tense fulfillment in Acts 2 MEANINGLESS and REDUNDANT.

    2. Spiritual union is quickening by the Spirit as the means to be "created IN CHRIST" - Eph. 2:1,5,10. and thus such a theory repudiates the new birth prior to Pentecost as well as personal indwelling which without NO MAN at ANY TIME can be His child - Rom. 8:7-9.

    Furthermore, look at the basics:

    1. The Administrator is Christ not the Spirit - "HE shall baptize you IN THE SPIRIT"

    2. The element is the Spirit not Christ - "He shall baptize you IN THE SPIRIT."

    3. The subjects are a PLURAL water baptized "you" - "He shall baptize YOU in the Spirit."

    4. the mode is IMMERSION


    However, in regard to WATER immersion all human instruments work together under ONE Spirit (1 Cor. 3:5-9) and thus it is the Spirit that is the administrator of water baptism into the metaphorical body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27).


    Furthermore, those who think the expression "in Christ" has but only one applications are simply ignorant of the Scritpures. There are seven distinct different ways to be "in Christ" in Scriptures. I will give the chronological differences:

    1. We are CHOSEN "in him" before the world by Purpose - Eph. 1:4

    2. We are FEDERALLY "in him" by substitutionary representation during the life of Christ on earth - Rom. 5:12-19.

    3. We are CREATED "in Christ" by quickening - Eph. 2:1,5, 10

    4. We are POSITIONALLY "in Christ" legally by justification through faith or imputation - Rom. 3:24-5:2; 6:7

    5. We are WATER BAPTIZED "in Christ" by figure - 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 6:4-6

    6. We are WATER BAPTIZED into the metaphorical body of Christ - 1 Cor. 12:13,27

    7. We are EXPERIENTIALLY in Christ by faith walking in the Spirit - Col. 2:6; Gal. 5:25; Rom. 6:11-13; 8:10-13; etc.


    I might add that the idea that we were "in Christ" by ACTUAL spiritual union before the world began is heresy in the worst sense as it makes us indiscriminately one with the eternal nature of God, and thus "gods." Isaiah 46:10-11 clearly and explicitly distinguishes Divine "purpose" from Divine execution of that purpose in time and space. This "spiritual union" reality doctrine has given rise to such false doctrines as the "Two Seed" theory, eternal justification, eternal regeneration, eternal glorification, that believers where never the children of wrath as others, that in reality we were always sheep IN NATURE, never under God's wrath, and the list of heresies go on and on in regard to this initial false doctrine.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had ALSO ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

    Another significant factor concerning the "baptism in the Spirit" is the public administrative aspect of the covenants.

    The "Old" Covenant had a public visible administrative (not legislative) aspect which centered around "the house of God" (temple/tabernacle) where the law of God were publicly administrated, by publicly qualified and ordained ministry, with publicly qualified and ordained ordinances. This public authority to publicly administer these things are metaphorically identified as "the keys of the kingdom" or "the seat of Moses."

    The New Covenant also has a visible public administrative (not legislative) authority ("the keys of the kingdom") invested in the public visible "house of God" by a qualified public ministry who administer public qualified ordinances.

    The baptism in the Spirit is the divine accreditation of this public administration in the kingdom of God on earth which identifies "the house of God" as the "pillar and ground of the truth."

    Each covenant administration was STRICTLY COMPOSED OF JEWS ONLY and given a commission. The "Old" Covenant "house of God" was to preach the gospel and then make the believers "Jewish" in their religious practice. The Old Covenant administrators PERVERTED the gospel and even though the "compassed sea and land to make one proselyte" they made it a two fold more child of Hell because of their false gospel.

    The New Covenant administrators begin as a JEWISH administration but is designed to become NON-ETHNIC (Acts 10) in the componement membership of the public administration "house of God." It is also given a commission to preach the very same gospel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; etc.) to "all nations"

    The Baptism in the Spirit identifies the "house of God" entrusted with that administrative authority. In Acts 1-9 the new "house of God" was composed of jews only and intent on restricting to Jews only. This is why there was a repeat of the baptism in the Spirit in the GENTILE house of Cornelius. Just examine the context and Peter's unwillingness to even go to a Gentile house with the gospel. He brought six Jewish church members to be witnesses and God gave them divine accreditation to confirm GENTILE membership in the new "house of God" and thus WATER BAPTISM that made them qualified for membership in the church at Jerusalem could not be with held. Look at the explanation Peter was forced to give to the JEWISH membership in the church at Jerusalem for bring GENTILE members into the congregation.

    The nearest point of reference that Peter could give for the baptism in the Spirit was "AT the beginning" or Pentecost. This proves that the Pentecostal (second grace theory) and the Reformed "spiritual union" theory are false as thousands had been saved SINCE Pentecost and yet Peter could not find any closer reference point then "AT the beginning" - Acts 11:15-16.

    Hence the baptism in the Spirit is the Old and New Testament accrediting act of God whereby the visible authorized administration of the keys of the kingdom are found - "the house of God."
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    Here is another very serious factor to consider. What is SPIRITUAL DEATH? I believe I can show from scripture conclusively that it is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God. Hence, what would be the opposite of spiritual separation from God? Obvious answer - "spiritual union with God." That is the simple truth.

    Hence, "baptism in the Spirit' cannot possibly be "spiritual union with God" as that would damn all prior to Pentecost as SPIRITUALLY DEAD and thus SEPARATED SPIRITUALLY FROM GOD.

    To argue that they were in "spiritual union" before the world began IN REALITY is simply foolish and Biblically wrong. Foolish, because it would demand they were quickened prior to physical birth IN REALITY and thus never in need of being quickened IN TIME IN REALITY. Foolish, because it would make the future tense promise of baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost meaningless and redundant as they were already in spiritual union with Christ IN REALITY according to that theory.

    It is Biblically inaccurate because God makes a clear distinction between things He has purposed versus their reality in time and space, as much as thought is to be distinguished from action or a blue print is to be distinguished from application of that blueprint by action - Isa. 46:10-11.

    Hence, the baptism in the Spirit has nothing at all to do with "spiritual union" with Christ in eternity or in time but with the "house of God" as the visible authorized administration of the Keys of the kingdom on earth. He is present with this visible "temple" administration of plural water baptized believers (1 Cor. 3:16) in a different sense then with the visible "temple" of the individual believer's physical body (1 Cor. 6:19). The latter is in the sense of salvation while the former is in the sense of public service (Mt. 28:19). The Great Commission is ADMINISTRATIVE authority restricted to a qualified plural "ye" of like faith and order with Christ = "disciple."
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Jul 17, 2014
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  10. Yeshua1

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    Does this all mean that you do not have a scripture passage that teaches what Spirit baptism is and means?

    Its like trying to get a Charasmatic to define and explain the "baptism of the Holy Ghost!"
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    You have pounded on scripture, but have yet to prove that God spoke of Spirit baptism to us in romans, or anywhere else!
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    What it means is...you have no idea what you are talking about. You started the thread and have no idea what your own thread is about.

    You never post scripture anywhere....you have no idea what you are talking about.....He asked you to answer with scripture.....if you do not answer him, why should anyone answer you?

    At least a charismatic gives an attempt at a biblical answer...something you refuse to do.
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Jul 17, 2014
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  13. convicted1

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    We have quoted many, you just hate the answers.......
     
  14. percho

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    Five verses backwards.

    Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted (gave) to the Gentiles repentance (change of mind) to life.”

    God gave change of mind. What did God give change of mind concerning? Verse 17

    Acts 11:17 “If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”


    To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If God wants them to believe why should I, Peter, withstand God. How was this given? Verse 16.

    Acts 11:16 “Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

    The gift of the Spirit of truth that teaches concerning Jesus. (But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26) How was this done? Verse 15.

    Acts 11:15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. (At Pentecost?) Acts 1:5 “for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 10 days I think.

    And this will bring about what? Verse 14.

    Acts 11:14 ‘who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ ----Salvation?
     
    #14 percho, Jul 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2014
  15. The Biblicist

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    I quoted two old Testament scriptures where the baptism in the Spirit occurred and what it is connected with. I quoted four New Testament Scriptures (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:4-5, 2:1-3; 10-11:16). I gave a full account of what it is by its contextual characteristics and that it cannot possibly have anything to do with "spiritual union." The issue is very simple, if SPIRITUAL SEPARATION = spiritual death; then what is the opposite to that???? SPIRITUAL UNION. Hence, spiritual union has NOTHING to do with the baptism in the Spirit.

    To argue that we were all LITERALLY and ACTUALLY in spiritual union with Christ before the world began not only makes the FUTURE fulfillment of the baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost redundant and foolish, but equally makes being "created in Christ Jesus" by quickening redundant and foolish (Eph. 2:10).
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    The Biblicist

    Your reasoning is flawed and perhaps if you consider the facts of the cross you will see it...

    Jesus finished his cross work 2000 yrs ago....you were not born yet, correct?

    Did Jesus die for you and your sins at that time...before you were physically born?

    Was full payment made and accepted before you were physically born?

    Had your election taken place? or did you have to wait to be physically born?

    Were you given to The Son before the world was....or after your physical birth?

    Did the Son die a Covenant death for His elect sheep that he came to seek and save?

    When He died we died, When he was raised we were raised...WHY?

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    You cannot nor should you attempt to ignore the Covenant of Redemption.

    It was certain in the mind of God before the world was....the exact amount and identity of the amount of saved persons was and is fixed and certain.

    It was certain for us because we are In Union with Christ, by virtue of the Covenant....not because we signed up to "join the team"

    Spirit Baptism while credentialing the Church as Christ's body...now deals with Persons, living stones....not a place like the OT types.

    You cannot divide God's purpose from the objects of His purpose;
    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    In the Ot types the Shekinah glory indwelt a physical building....now it indwells each and every believing person.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Unwittingly you are only proving my point and just don't realize it. You are talking about the "finished" work of Christ two thousand years ago, rather than God's eternal purpose before the world began that Christ would come and do that work. You are showing that the work of Christ was not finished before the world began, but had to be finished in time and space. Now, look at your own illustration of purposed work only finished in time and space:

    All the above was "finished" IN TIME AND SPACE rather than before the world began. However, you can't see that and so you quote the following text which actually contradicts everything you said above. Everything you said above WAS NOT FINISHED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN:

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Again, you seemingly cannot distinguish between God's purpose before the world began and the carrying out of that purpose in time and space. You give as your illustration the "finished" work of Christ IN TIME AND SPACE but in your mind you are thinking that because his "finished" work IN TIME AND SPACE preceded my life which also is IN TIME AND SPACE that this somehow proves your point between the relationship of God's eternal purpose and its fulfillment IN TIME AND SPACE. You are confused, as it does not prove your p point but merely proves what Isaiah 46:10-11 says expliclity that what God's purposes before the world IS NOT FINISHED until God carries it out IN TIME AND SPACE. Let me again refresh you mind in this simple truth:

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


    Now lets apply this principle to your attempted illustration. You used the "finished" work of Christ IN TIME AND SPACE as an example of something that occurred before I was born IN TIME AND SPACE to prove that something NOT IN TIME AND SPACE (before the world began) was finished NOT IN TIME AND SPACE! Can't you see the obvious plain contradiction in your own argument??? You can't use as an illustration something that is only FINISHED in time and Space (Christ's ministry on earth) as an example of something that does not occur in time and space (God's purpose).







    If you cannot see that God's word clearly distinguishes between God's eternal purpose BEFORE TIME with it being carried out IN TIME, and thus a distinction between PURPOSE and REALITY then I can't help you as that is expliclty what God himself delcares in Isaiah 46:10-11 in plain clear langauge. In case you missed it let me place it before your mind once more:


    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.



    Your view of the baptism in the Spirit is not only false but it perverts the very essence of salvation. Spiritual death is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION or don't you understand that????? Now, ask yourself what is the opposite of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION or opposite of SPIRITUAL DEATH? The answer is so simple - SPIRITUAL UNION or SPIRITUAL LIFE and that is by QUICKENING or being "CREATED in Christ" (Eph. 2:1,5,10) not by baptism in the Spirit.


    Now, read what I am about to say slowly and let it sink in. You know very well that the baptism in the Spirit is a DATED fulfillment that was a matter of PREDICTED but UNFULFILLED prophecy in regard to people throughout the gospels right up to Acts 2:1-3 - YOU KNOW THAT as the scriptures are very clear and explicit it was a FUTURE from the four gospel point of time. Hence, it was not a PRE-Pentecost reality. Therefore, if it is as you claim - spiritual union - then there was no spiritual union between God and His people prior to Pentecost - Hence they were OUTSIDE of Christ, spiriturally dead as there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF CHRIST for anyone at any time. Thus, this is how your view perverts the gospel of Christ and perverts salvation in Christ for Pre-Pentecost saints.

    However, in order to avoid this prickly pear you advance another false doctrine by claiming that the baptism in the spirit was a REALITY prior to the beginning of the world. In so doing, you make the predictive dated prophecy on Pentecost meaningless and void. In doing so, you confuse Purpose BEFORE TIME with fulfillment IN TIME in direct contradiction to Isaiah 46:10-11 (and many other like scriptures) which demand that God's purpose prior to the world was NOT ACTUAL FULFILLMENT except in time and space as God actually had to do it in time and space "I WILL DO...I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS....I WILL ALSO DO IT"

    The simple truth is "spiritual union" is the reverse of "spiritual separation" and thus it is nothing more than being quickened which is a creative act of God that has occurred since the fall in Genesis and has NOTHING TO DO with the baptism in the Spirit.

    The Baptism in the Spirit has only to do with the INSTITUTIONAL house of God regardless of what form it may take (skins - tabernacle OR stone = temple OR lively stones = NT congregation). It has to do with the VISIBLE ADMINISTRATION of the keys of the kingdom by a qualified ministry, with qualified ordinances as a PUBLIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP. It publicly accredits that institutional house of God as the "pilliar and ground of the truth" manifested in the gospel it preaches and administers through the proper gospel ordinances (1 Tim. 3:16-4:1). Moses completed the tabernacle BEFORE it was immersed in the Spirit ONCE - Exodus 40:35-37; Solomon completed the temple BEFORE it was immersed in the Spirit ONCE - 2 Chron. 7:1-3; Jesus completed the Jewish membership of the Congregation BEFORE it was immersed in the Spirit ONCE - Mt. 16:18-19; 18:15-18; Mt. 28:19-20; and then immersed the Gentile membership ONCE - Acts 10-11.

    There were over 500 "brethren" that were present and saw Christ ascend into heaven (1 Cor. 15) but ONLY 120 were immersed in the Spirit on the day of Pentecost ONCE because the congregation at Jerusalem consisted only of 120. This was not an INDIVIDUAL baptism nor a REPEATING baptism as the closest example Peter could give concerning what happened in the house of Cornelius was "AT the beginning" or Pentecost, proving it was not a REPETITIOUS baptism with each believer SINCE Pentecost as the Protestant and Pentecostal claim.
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    The congregation at Jerusalem had been commanded to preach the gospel to "all nations" and they were given a specific order "in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth" (Mt. 28:19; Acts 1:8). However, just as the Old Testament institutional house of God did not allow Gentiles equal basis IN SERVICE but had an outer court of the Gentiles who were Proseyles Jews IN SALVATION, so also the new institutional house of God was reluctant to even preach the gospel to either Samaritans or Gentiles much less include them into the membership of the congregation by water baptism. Hence, God had to select and send Philip to Samaria, and select and send Peter to the house of Cornelius or else the congregations would have been reserved only for Jewish baptized believers.

    All indications are that Cornelius and his house were already believers in the OLD TESTAMENT gospel (Acts 10:43) but had not been told that (1) Jesus Christ was that Messiah (Acts 10:37-42) although they had heard about both John the Baptist and Jesus. (2) that God's revealed will was for believers to be water baptized into the membership of the New institutional house of God - the congregation. They had previously given alms at the Old Testament institutional house of God and offered prayers to God toward the temple in Jersualem like all other Jews (Acts 10:2,22, 31) and thus found favor with all the Jews.

    The change of mind wrought in Cornelius was in regard to Jesus Christ being the fulfillment of the Old Testament gospel promise, and submission to water baptism into the new institutional house of God (the church) rather than the Jewish institutional house of God the temple. Hence, the salvation wrought in his house was not the new birth but rather his life for service through the New Testament house of God. The same thing occurred with Apollos in Acts 18. He also had not known that Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah or that the church was the new Spirit baptized (accredited) house of God. You must remember that "saved" or "salvation" is for more comprehensive than merely new birth, as it encompasses all aspects of salvation from new birth to glorification and can be properly used for any one of these aspects. Progressive sanctification is part of being "saved" and progressive sanctification includes our sanctification through service in God's house.

    Acts 11:17 “If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?

    Peter is defending why he WATER BAPTIZED them into the membership of the congregation at Jerusalem. This is why the Jewish membership was so upset, Peter had brought gentiles into EQUAL STANDING with them. Peter's explanation was the baptism in the Spirit - divine accreditation of God's House. God had divinely accredited them as acceptable for water baptism into His new house. Hence, Peter asks, "who was I that could withstand God." He asked the six Jews that accompanied him "Can any man forbid" them to be WATER baptized in light of this Divine accrediting act by God? This proves the baptism in the Spirit is a DIVINE ACCREDITATION in respect to the institutional house of God.
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Jul 21, 2014
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  19. The Biblicist

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    What the majority of Bible students fail to grasp and understand is that each covenant (Old and New) had a VISIBLE administration of the covenant identified with the INSTITUTIONAL house of God (Heb. 9:1 "also"). This INSTITUTIONAL house of God was invested with the "keys of the kingdom" or the proper administration of qualified ordinances by a qualified ministry. This INSTITUTIONAL house of God was the PUBLIC house of worship and the "house of prayer."

    This INSTITUTIONAL house of God was the manifest visible expression of the kingdom of God on earth. Here is where you could SEE the laws of the Kingdom being manifested and the ordinances being administered and worship being publicly expressed, thus making it "the house of God the pillar and ground of the truth." Therefore, when such an INSTITUTIONAL house of God was built, it was carefully separated and identifed publicly by immersion in the shikinah glory ONCE. The New Testament congregational body of Christ was this new institutional house of God, and as an institution it was immersed in the shikinah glory once in Acts 2 in regard to its Jewish membership and once in Acts 10 in regard to its Gentile membership. It then reproduced after its own kind throughout the world in various geographical locations (Antioch, Corinth, Ephesus, etc.). Each being a public institutional house of God with a qualified ministry and qualified ordinances exercising the keys of the kingdom.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    The Biblicist

    B....Creation itself could not have taken place before the Lord Jesus Christ began His work as mediator...rev 13:8...and that work was before creation.

    B....I will offer you an article that might be helpful to you that not only shows the reason we differ, but how it leads you to wrong....

    I will highlight a few portions....
    http://more.mbu.edu/journal/volume-two/the-landmark-controversy/


    Campbell’s Motivation

    Alexander Campbell seems to have been driven by a passion to reform Christendom. He held that the “ancient gospel” had been obscured by “human traditions,” and thus he sought to return the churches to the practices of the New Testament.He stood against a paid clergy, all human institutions for propagating the gospel, and the use of creeds or doctrinal statements. “The professed object was to return to the simplicity of the New Testament faith and practice.”

    Campbell’s Doctrine

    Campbell adopted several aberrant doctrinal views. His first error, and one of the most critical, dealt with the nature of saving faith. Campbell had studied at the University of Glasgow before coming to the United States. There he had absorbed the teaching of Robert Sandeman, which effectively reduced saving faith to “head belief” or “mental assent.”

    Sandemanianism refers primarily to an aspect of theology regarding the nature of faith promoted by Robert Sandeman (1718–1781), from which it derives its name, and his father-in-law John Glas (1695–1773) in Scotland and England during the mid-eighteenth century.

    To the Sandemanians, the nature of saving faith reduces to mere intellectual assent to a fact or proposition. This is illustrated rather clearly in the following quote. “In a series of letters to James Hervey, the author of Theron and Aspasia, he [Sandeman] maintained that justifying faith is a simple assent to the divine testimony concerning Jesus Christ, differing in no way in its character from belief in any ordinary testimony.”

    Following this, “Campbell taught that baptism by immersion completes the process of salvation.” Campbell is quoted as saying:

    We have the most explicit proof that God forgives sins for the name’s sake of his Son, or when the name of Jesus Christ is named upon us in immersion:—that in, and by, the act of immersion, so soon as our bodies are put under water, at that very instant our former, or “old sins,” are washed away, provided only that we are true believers.


    The effect of Campbellism also greatly minimized the work of the Holy Spirit

    McBeth cites minutes of the Franklin Association in Kentucky affirming that the Campbellites held “that there is no direct operation of the Holy Spirit on the mind prior to baptism—that baptism procures the remission of sins

    The Stage Set for the Landmark Movement

    It was in this context and against this backdrop that James R. Graves developed his movement known as Landmarkism. In combating the Campbellite heresies of their supposed “reformation,” Graves sought to establish an authenticity for church succession. It is a classic example of overreaction.

    Graves’ primary concerns had to do with practices he observed in Baptist churches and how those churches related to other denominations

    Several unique doctrinal traits characterize the Landmark movement.

    “Baptist churches are the only true churches in the world.”

    Those who hold the Landmark position argue that only Baptist churches exhibit all the marks of a true church as taught in the New Testament; therefore, they are the only true churches. “It follows that they have the only true ministers, ordinances, and preaching.”

    “The true church is a local, visible institution.”

    Landmark Baptists vehemently deny the existence of a church of which all regenerated people in this age are a part. This is an issue that is debated among Baptist theologians. It is rightly a discussion for Ecclesiology in Systematic Theology or Baptist Polity. Not all who hold this view espouse the Landmark position, but all Landmarkers today hold it.

    A Faulty Theology

    Landmarkism subtly combines true marks of a New Testament church with the faulty assumption that the churches and the kingdom of God are synonymous terms. Thus, it builds on a faulty biblical and theological base.


    I think this article does a reasonable job discussing the issue and how one error led to the other. I hold a local church view very similar to the landmark position, but do not go over the line, which it seems to me that you do.

    Of course the parts of the plan are unfolded in time and space.
    They were no less certain to happen in time as they were before the world was.
    Jesus entered into time and space to identify with the Covenant children the Father had given HIM. Hebrews 2:9-17

    .

    Yes...and they were certain before they happened in time and space, look at announcement.....

    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham



    However, you can't see that and so you quote the following text which actually contradicts everything you said above. Everything you said above WAS NOT FINISHED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN:

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



    I can see how it happens, however God being supra temporal reveals it progressively....there is no need to overdo the time distinction.


    Yes...as it concerns the Covenant Sheep. You deny this 2tim1:9...I do not.




    You are confused, as it does not prove your p point but merely proves what Isaiah 46:10-11 says expliclity that what God's purposes before the world IS NOT FINISHED until God carries it out IN TIME AND SPACE. Let me again refresh you mind in this simple truth:

    10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
    11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.



    In light of the Covenant of Redemption....my view stands...The word of promise the sheep have right now....are no less certain than it will be on the last day....2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Jul 21, 2014
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