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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by mandym, Jul 21, 2012.
1. Regeneration before salvation and faith
2. God's grace is irresistable
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
"For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.
One cannot be "cut to the heart" and not have the ability to sense that conviction as different of kind and effect than the typical worldly sorrow over being caught in evil conviction. That "cut to the heart" sense is the "quickening" (awaking) of the need of Christ and cannot be given to the unregenerate - for the Scriptures plainly speak that the natural receives nothing from the Spiritual. The quickening then must be a part of the "new nature;" for notice the very same verse, the folks cry out "BROTHERS" - not enemies, not relatives, but a close kinship of heirs. Some would desire to read this as Israelis calling out, but further reading shows that not everyone called them "brothers."
Who then responds to this message of the Gospel?
It is given in the next quote. "Everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
There was no "general" acceptance, but only those who the Scriptures clearly indicated were called - came.
Baloney, no one is quickened or made alive until their sins are washed away. This is exactly what Peter showed, he said these convicted men needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of their sins, and AFTERWARD they would receive the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9 clearly tells us that no man is spiritual UNTIL he has the indwelling Holy Spirit, therefore these men were not quickened or regenerated until after they believed and received the Spirit.
You mistake conviction for regeneration, which by definition (regeneration) means to be made alive again. Quickened also means to be made alive.
Natural man can be convicted by the word of God, this is shown in the story of the woman taken in adultery. These men were deeply convicted by Jesus's words, yet we have no record of them believing on Jesus. In fact, their very intention was to attempt to ensnare Jesus in his words so they could bring accusation against him. These were not regenerate men, yet they were convicted by the word of God.
These men in Acts 2 were not regenerated or quickened when they heard Peter, they were convicted. You redefine words. Neither regeneration or quickened means convicted.
Peter by the holy Spirit found the gospel in Joel 2.
Some try and pry into the unseen secret work of the Spirit. this is not wise.We know it happens as jesus taught in Jn 3.
Regeneration happens at conversion when The Spirit of God quickens a dead sinner to life, enabling him to believe the gospel, or the good news about Jesus person and work. Peter opens up the gospel from the book of Joel,saying pentecost fulfills Joel 2.
After describing the events he begins to Preach Jesus as Lord and Christ.unless accompanied by the Spirit of God, this preaching would not enter hearts and minds. The fact that thousands were convicted of sin. and then were willing to believe shows that God made them willing in the day of his power, as salvation does not happen in any other way.
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Agedman mentioned this already
[/B]40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together,
No natural man can believe savingly. so when it says they believed, it was the unseen work of the Spirit.
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Salvation being of the LORD...it says God added to the church...such as should be saved......no nosensical ....God wanted all to be saved.....God added such as should be saved[the elect}
Can any of you actually answer my question?
I did...Peter found it in Joel 2
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
The gospel is there, though it is not presented in the way we most often hear it. Peter first preached that Jesus was the promised Christ who was raised from the dead. He told his hearers that all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. He then tells these persons to repent. What does this mean? These persons had previously believed Jesus to be a blasphemer, that was the official charge against him. They were to turn from this error and believe Jesus was indeed the Christ, the promised Son of God. Upon calling upon Jesus their sins would be forgiven and they would receive the Holy Spirit.
So, it is the gospel, but not in the exact form we are most accustomed to.
In answer to Icon, the Lord calls EVERYONE to repent and believe on Jesus.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
I didn't just say the gospel.
Well, as you can see, both Agedman and Icon insist these men were regenerated and quickened before they received the Spirit, but Romans 8:9 tells us until a man receives the Spirit he is still "in the flesh".
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
A person is not in the flesh if so be the Spirit of God dwells in them, therefore they ARE in the flesh if the Spirit is not yet dwelling in them.
Peter clearly told these men to repent and be baptized in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of their sins and THEN they would receive the Spirit, therefore it follows that Peter taught a man "in the flesh" can both repent and believe on Jesus.
Calvinists will tell you the exact opposite, that these men were regenerated or quickened before they received the indwelling Holy Spirit. In fact, that is exactly what AM and Icon argue.
I didn't know you were a Campbellite?
Don't Church of Christ folks believe what you just posted?
Of course, I would call what they view on this issue as baloney, too.
Isn't that what I stated? That BOTH the Word and work of the Holy Spirit has to work together to quicken or regenerate? The Holy Spirit does not suddenly appear at the whim of human volition. It is like the wind -Christ said, "The wind blows where it lists, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
However, Romans 8:9 is in discussion with BELIEVERS - who have the spirit in them. That is the point Paul is making. It follows those wonderful verses that discuss how the believer who walks in the flesh (carnal mind) will tend to the things and thinking of the flesh and not the Spirit beginning with verse one - "there is therefore no condemnation..." That the carnal mind (even in a believer) is enmity against God and Godliness.
I don't mistake it at all. As you and I have discussed on other threads, I hold that unless God quickens a person, there is no real conviction that leads to confession. That salvation isn't at confession, but the reflection of salvation. The baby cries at birth not to be born, but to share with the world that birth has already taken place. Therefore, a person who is experiencing Godly conviction must be quickened to realize (just as Paul - "How long will you kick against the pricks.") such conviction as essentially different and of Godly quality to make it distinct from typical worldly sorrow.
Should you choose not to place that perspective as yours is no lack in my understanding of the definition and terms.
Certainly they were not "regenerate men" and could not express Godly sorrow.
The Scriptures state, "For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world works death."
What the "conviction" of the men in the story indicated is not Godly conviction, rather "sorrow of the world."
That is why they turned away from Christ. Only "Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation."
Again, that is the sequence you choose, but I do not. I have not "redefined" anything.
That humankind is dead and cannot even be impressed by the thinking and things of God is clearly stated in Scriptures.
That the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word (Jesus) causes that person to become aware of the claims of Christ is also clearly stated in Scriptures - example: Conversion of Paul.
That this awareness is the initial implantation of the seed in which when placed in the "good earth" will emerge and bear fruit is shown in the parable of the sower.
That the person already has (as Romans 10 states) belief in their heart and the words in their mouth, before they proclaim belief.
Therefore, it is not the proclamation that brings the Holy Spirit nor salvation, for such already is in the heart. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." That is why some proclaim desiring knowledge "what must we do" and the response is to believe. It is not of human volition, but of action already having occurred in the heart, unless the person would not even inquire at all.
I know there are some (perhaps many) that place emphasis upon "public professions of faith" and "human volition."
I do not.
I trust that when the Scriptures state, "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession (giving thanks, proclamation of) is made unto (acknowledging) salvation."
That the verbalizing confession is made not to bring salvation but that salvation occurs first in the heart and then is proclaimed as belief.
Mumbo jumbo, you redefine words. These men were convicted by Peter's preaching, but they were not regenerated or quickened, which both mean to be made alive.
Romans 8:9 clearly teaches until a man has the indwelling Spirit he is not in the Spirit, but in the flesh. These men had not received the Spirit yet, so they were clearly in the flesh. Yet they could be convicted, and Peter fully expected that they could both repent and believe, and afterward they would receive the Spirit.
You cannot simply redefine words (especially in scripture) to mean whatever you desire them to mean.
Did these men Peter spoke to understand it in those terms based on what Peter said?
Are you asking a question or making a statement? I did not see any question marks in your OP.
Perhaps you missed the part of the post that states to whom Paul is discussing in Romans 8!
"There is therefore NO condemnation to them who are ..." begins the discussion of BELIEVERS. Those BELIEVERS who are carnally minded and those who are Spiritually tuned.
That the discussion can apply to the unregenerate is ONLY in that there is NO spiritual side from which the unregenerate have to draw from, only the carnal mind of the flesh fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.
But the BELIEVERS have a double life ability for they have two natures that war against each other.
I am not re-defining words.
You are taking a verse out of context and attempting to misapply it.
Perhaps you will do better by posting the whole of Romans 8 and demonstrating that I am wrong rather than selecting a single verse and making a stand that is not supported by the balance of that passage.
Romans 8 does not apply here. This is about Acts and acts 2 alone. Did the men hearing the gospel from Peter understand that man is regenerated and grace is irresistible?
I am not exactly sure what you are asking me here.
I think it is important to remember that all these persons were devout Jews from many nations, and it is fairly safe to assume that they had a good knowledge of OT scripture. We often assume these men where like persons who have no religious knowledge or training, nothing could be further from the truth.
This is why I believe some mistake Paul's teaching in Romans 3 for example. Paul was quoting Psalms 14 which was speaking of "fools" who deny that God exists. The Jews knew this scripture and in no way would understand Paul to be speaking of all men as Calvinists especially interpret Paul here.
We see in John that Nathanael (and his brother ) understood exactly who the Christ was to be.
Jhn 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
You see here that even the unbelieving Pharisees knew of the promised Christ.
Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Andrew knew of the promised Messiah or Christ.
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Philip knew of the promised Christ.
Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Andrew, Philip, and Nathanael were common men, but we see they had a great knowledge of OT scripture and prophecy. They knew exactly that the Christ would be the Son of God.
So, what I am saying is that these Jews at Pentacost already knew of the promised Christ and that he would save Israel, and that they were to put their trust in him. Now, they did not at first understand Jesus would die on the cross for their sins and rise from the dead, but Peter explained all this to them.
And we are not privy to every exact thing Peter said that day, only what is revealed to us.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
We see here that only a small portion of what Peter preached that day has been revealed to us. So we cannot know into what depth Peter preached doctrine, but it is fairly safe to assume he did.
One thing is notable, Peter believed that man participates with God in salvation, as Paul exhorted these men to "save themselves".
This passage in Acts 2 utterly refutes Calvinism, these men were convicted before they received the Spirit, Peter shows that they had to repent and believe to receive the Spirit, and that men participate with God in their salvation.
And I am sure that Peter being filled with the Holy Spirit that day did not speak error.
I cannot figure out how else to ask the question. When Peter preached this sermon sharing the gospel did the people listening to him and receiving the gospel understand that grace is irresistible and men are regenerated before before salvation?
I'm going to say no, and here's why.
I recall that day, as a nine-year-old, when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin, and drew me to the Lord Jesus. Up to that moment, I had heard many sermons, sat through many invitations, and had never understood what it meant to be lost. That Sunday morning, however, the Holy Spirit illuminated my understanding of my lostness. The Lord saved me that morning.
If my pastor had asked me, do you understand that salvation is by grace and that grace is irresistible, you would have gotten a blank stare, or a "Huh?"
If my pastor had asked me, do you understand that before you came down that aisle, the Holy Spirit had already regenerated you, my answer would have been "What chu talkin' about?"
I never heard either of those things discussed until I was an adult.
I imagine that most, if not all of those to whom Peter preached, had never heard them either.
The gospel is neither of those things. Our message to the lost is Jesus died for sinners. Repent, and trust Christ and him alone for salvation.
So Calvinism is not the gospel?