Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Aug 3, 2009.

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  1. Benefactor

    Benefactor
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    The Tulip Troops Try To Teach That They are saved first then they believe they are saved the second time.

    Can any Calvinist, or Reform Theologian, show one clear specific statement where God's word states that a person is first saved then he believes again to get saved again?

    The proof is in the pudding?

    Stay tuned folks we are about to see one of the Tallest Tails of Truth Twisting ever by our Brothers and Sisters in Christ. This is going to be fun. Lets set back an watch the ACRT squirm.

    Here is what to expect:

    1. First there is denial
    2. Second, perhaps a little hostility. If you are not a Calvinist wear some hidden water bottles just incase they break out the green wood and start a “burn at the stake” party because it will come in handy to put out the fire.
     
    #1 Benefactor, Aug 3, 2009
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  2. canadyjd

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    The "beef" is certainly not in your ability to accurately state reformed theology.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  3. Jarthur001

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    :laugh::laugh:
    Very poor understanding of Calvinism. Maybe you need to understand it before you try to debate it. I am a 5 point Calvinist and I have never said what you say Calvinist say. I never heard anyone say this. You have just shown you don't know what you are talking about. There is one salvation friend.

    Why would they say it the way you understand it, when the way you understand it is wrong?

    Now I agree with this. :)

    You have yet to make a point. Why not start over and get it right and maybe someone can reply.


    Priceless

    This is great. Make a false statement and declare they will deny it. :laugh:

    You mean like this....?

    Name calling..
    1) Tulip Troops Try To Teach....

    Lies...
    2) saved the second time

    More lies...
    3) see one of the Tallest Tails of Truth Twisting

    when all we need to do is laugh at your post.

    another one. Loss the hate
     
  4. Benefactor

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    So you are saying that you do not teach that a person is first saved then given a special gift of faith to believe in Christ. Is this a true statement of your theology? Yes or No
     
  5. Benefactor

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  6. Jarthur001

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    let me say once again "ben" there is but one Salvation. Both sides agree on this. You need to understand Ordo Salutis. That is where the line is drawn between the camps. Once you understand this, you will use the right words.

    Please stop making threads that start off..."I'm going to show those stupid Calvinist a few things"...and then post things that show you don't have a clue. Its clear by now you don't know as much as you think you do.
     
  7. Benefactor

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    Do you deny that you teach that you believe in salvation first then faith next. Are you willing to openly tell everyone that you believe or deny this?
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    What is a tulip trooper? A trooper to me makes sure you don't go faster than the speed limit. No theology book calls a Calvinist a Tulip Trooper. If you want people to stop laughing AT you use the right phrases. If you think your cute....you'er not.

    However if this kind of child like posting makes you happy and you feel as if you have won, than go ahead, because unless you show you know more than you have so far, you will never win a debate on this board.

    Theory of Tulipology?...another made up name. big deal. Why not post something that matters.

    get real. I'm a calvinist, Live with it.
     
    #8 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2009
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  9. Jarthur001

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    ha ha ha....:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

    Ben...you have very poor understanding on Calvinism. Let me say it again..Ordo Salutis. Google it. Read about it.


    I know what you are trying to say...but you are WAY off ben. get the wording right, then we can talk
     
  10. preachinjesus

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    hehehe...this is great reading! :D
     
  11. Benefactor

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    Here are a few OS views: Do you identify with one of these or is yours different?

    Even within the Reformed circles there are disagreements on the ordo-salutis.
    Kuyper: justification -> regeneration -> calling. (to preserve grace absolutely)
    Hoeksema : regeneration -> calling -> faith -> justification (to preserve depravity)
    Murray: calling -> regeneration -> faith…. (purpose of preaching is for regeneration)
    WCF: order ?

    History of order of salvation, w w w dot two-age dot org/church/school/morning/ferguson_5 dotdoc; August 3, 2009
     
    #11 Benefactor, Aug 3, 2009
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  12. Benefactor

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    Let me see you are embarraiss to tell everyone that you believe you must be saved before you have faith, is that correct?
     
  13. Tom Butler

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    I just love it when a new guy shows up, full of spit and vinegar, thinking he's going to kick some Calvinist behind.

    Brother Ben, go find the posts by people like Allan and Webdog. At least when they oppose Calvinism, they understand the Calvinism they oppose. You could learn from them.

    Pastor Larry has 21,000 posts. JArthur has more than 5,000. You have 45 at this writing. Show a little more respect for your elders.
     
  14. Benefactor

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    So you deny that you believe that salvation precedes faith? Are you denying this or affirming it?
     
  15. Benefactor

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    More on why ACRT Order of Salvation is wrong

    Titus 3:5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

    Salvation is described as “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”

    This is a clear as it can be stated. When we speak of regeneration we are speaking of the moment of Salvation, or as it is also called Conversion or born a gain or born from above.

    So there is not order in these words but these words simply describe what took place in that instant of conversion.

    But, was there a prerequisite to this salvation / regeneration? Lets let the Canon Speak and forsake Calvin’s System

    Jesus said in Luke 7: 50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

    Are there any ACRT out there brave enough to try and refute this order which is faith first and regeneration next. I am sure someone will pop up and deny the Scripture.
     
  16. Darrenss1

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    Agreed!! The OP is just trigger happy, looking for an argument.

    Darren
     
  17. Lux et veritas

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    I don't know a Calvinist anywhere that has time to twist "tails". And if they are still attached to their owners, it's probably not a smart thing.:laugh:

    Really, Ben - you need to spend a little less time preening and a bit more praying. A little less focus on how clever you think you are and a little more on how little you really know.

    When we took debate in class we couldn't even start until we had expressed the opposite view in terms that they agreed was a correct representation of what they believed! You are so far off the mark in what the Reformers taught in regards to the salvation of a sinner, as to be good for a laugh ... if it wasn't that in your mind you are serious.

    Here's something for you to try. Read something by Calvin - let's say, his Institutes. Even a few chapters. Then put into words what it is you think he is saying and ask a Calvinist if that is a correct way of putting it. THEN come to the forum for a debate.
     
  18. Darrenss1

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    Or he could simply listen to some presentations by well known Calvinists such as Dr James White and/or his program the dividing line, that was helpful to me. In my case the church I attend is intolerant of Calvinism before I even knew what the details were, so I decided to check it out for myself.

    Darren
     
  19. Benefactor

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    THIRD AND FOURTH HEADS OF DOCTRINE
    Of the Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, and the Manner Thereof.


    Article 11. But when God accomplishes his good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, he not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illumines their minds by his Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit, pervades the inmost recesses of the man; he opens the closed, and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised, infuses new qualities into the will, which though heretofore dead, he quickens; from being evil, disobedient and refractory, he renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.

    Article 12. And this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation, or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. - Whereupon the will thus renewed, is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence, becomes itself active. Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received
    The Canons of Dordt ; h t t p colon back slash back slash dot p r c a dot o r g back slash c d under line text3 dot h t m l ; Aughst 4, 2009


    So you deny that these teach two regenerations?

    Man is said to be regenerated so that man can be regenerated so that man can believe (have faith in Jesus) and repent.

    These are your doctrines and yet you deny it or are you ashamed of it.

    I challenge you to point our readers to any area in the Scripture where he or she may read without any manner of Tulipology Twisting to force such to say what is does not say.

    Jesus stated in Luke 7:50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

    The verse does not read: And He said to the woman, "Your salvation/regeneration has faithed you.

    Jesus clearly and with out any need to twist or reinvent the wheel gives the order of salvation is these very few words believe and be saved or have faith and be saved.

    Do you followers of the false doctrine of Dort deny that what Jesus taught rebukes these false teaching?

    Dort Devotees / Tulip troopers produce Scripture that, with out commentary, twist, and endless paragraphs to explain it away refutes Jesus?

    Where in your bible does it teach two regenerations and then after he is doubly saved will then repent and believe. Where in Scripture is this outline found without running here and there to compile and twist and weave together your false doctrine?

    Here are the simple clear Scripture that fully and completely refutes the Dangerous Dort Dogma.

    5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

    Romans 10: 6. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows

    9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    Here Paul leaves not doubt as to how to understand the order of salvation. To deny this is to deny sound doctrine.

    1. Righteousness that is based upon faith must be accordingly:

    A. confess with mouth
    B. believe in your heart - that God raised Jesus from the dead
    C. you will be saved, verse ten repeats and confirms this process

    Justification is by faith, righteousness is based on faith, and salvation is because of faith

    None of these teach that salvation / regeneration comes before faith.

    I Cor. 1:21. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

    The order is first Believe then one is Saved/regenerated/given new birth/caused to be born from above

    Acts 16: 31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Acts 16:0. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
     
    #19 Benefactor, Aug 4, 2009
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  20. Darrenss1

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    You have to love the language of those writers... lol

    I wasn't aware Calvinism taugh 2 regenerations but this stumped me -
    "it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable"

    (that after God has performed his part)
    It still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or NOT??
    To be converted or to continue unconverted??

    Weird, I've never heard of it. I thought once a sinner is regenerated that's it, they are as good as saved?? According to that there would be unelected regenerated sinners in the lake of fire? Did I miss something?? Did God reverse the regeneration according to the above?

    Darren
     
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