Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

not true, you have to get it right or your discussion is automatically skewed from the start.

 

I deny emphatically that these teach 2 regenerations.

Ben - you have such a hatred of that branch of Christianity that is largely responsible for your civil and religious freedoms today, that you can't even read without your blinkers on.

This does NOT say there are two regenerations at all! TAKE A MOMENT TO CATCH YOUR BREATH AND READ for a change. Here's what it says...

Article 12. And (this is linking Article 12 to #11 - it's not another regeneration) this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work,...

This Article of their confession is stating that this work of regeneration is a work which God works in us without our aid. It simply states that at no point does regeneration come from within the power of man. He has no power to regenerate himself.

Ben - If you are not going to at least be truthful and honest in your assertions, then you will find yourself in serious difficulties spiritually and otherwise when you speak on these matters.

I will await your apology for misrepresenting this Confession of Faith.

 

Nothing was misrepresented. The article states:


God regenerates man (man is now spiritually alive/saved from death.)

Man believes.

Man is saved.


Unless you are going to say that regeneration is not salvation, then what this article says is that man is saved twice. First by the regeneration of God and then by the faith of man.

Clearly, "His part" is regeneration ("without the aid of man").

Afterward, man has the "power" to be regenerated.

When it says "to be regenerated or not" does that mean that man can say no to the regeneration that God has just done and therefore undo it?


This is what you believe?

 

Maybe you need to read it again.


"it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not"

 

Before you debate Calvinism, I suggest you read I Corinthians 13 and meditate on that for awhile - a long while.

 

They do not like your characterization so they will claim you do not know what they believe. It is typical of reformed folks in debate to use this tactic. And what you have communicated has been expressed on this board.

 

I don't like it because of the unloving and contentious way it is expressed, and it seems from his few posts on here that he is just looking for a fight and opportunity to put others down. Even if I think what he says is truth, it certainly isn't expressed in love.

 

I'm sure they don't appreciate your approach, but I would bet the real reason they will not tell you specifically what they believe is because you would then be able to show it false from scripture. If they send you elsewhere, they can always claim a difference of opinion with that particular author.

They are going to say you don't understand them everytime, it is an easy excuse.

 

Maybe they "passed over" that statement?? :laugh:

Darren

 

He may be a little sharp but he's answered every question and asked some that are yet to be answered. And, his prediction came off as, well, predicted!

 

The above is a bunch of crap. I don't know what your background is but whatever it is you are poorly prepared to discuss Christian doctrine if your understanding of the Biblical Doctrines of Grace is so limited. And I can answer the stupid challenge you pose: [OldRegular's bold in the quote.]

They can't. It doesn't exist. God is smarter than you freewillers think. And Scripture is inerrant.

 

Sport you can't read plain English. I have no idea whether or not you comprehend Article 11 but you are completely ignorant of what Article 12 states. Anyone who has completed 12th grade English should be able to understand these two articles. Your problem is that you tried to make a rainbow out of the two articles and got lost in the glow of the color and your own arrogance.


Article 12, Sentence 1: And this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid.

This sentence refers back to Article 11 and indicates that Regeneration is solely the work of God.

Article 12, Sentence 2, Clause 1: But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted;

Notice the BUT and the THIS. The THIS is the REGENERATION of Article 11 and Article 12, Sentence 1.

Now what is said about THIS REGENERATION? It is IN NO WISE EFFECTED merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation.

That means just what it says. Regeneration is solely the work of God and is in no way effected by the external preaching of the gospel, etc..

Now look at the last part of this statement: [such] that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted.

Article 12, Sentence 2, Clause 1 simply states, to those who can understand, that after man has been regenerated the matter, Salvation, is no longer in that person's power. Everything that is required has been accomplished. The external preaching of the gospel, moral suasion, or any such a mode of operation IN NO WISE EFFECTED THIS REGENERATION.

Now look at Article 12, Sentence 2, Clause 2; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation, or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe.

There is that pesky BUT again. BUT IT IS EVIDENTLY A SUPERNATURAL WORKk. What is a supernatural work? It is REGENERATION. THIS REGENERATION not inferior in efficacy to creation. In fact Scripture states that after REGENERATION

2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Notice further: so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. They believe or exercise their God given faith after they have been regenerated, consistent with Ephesians 2:1-8.

Article 12, Last Sentence: Whereupon the will thus renewed, is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence, becomes itself active. Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received.

The above is self explanatory to all except those blinded by their false and evil doctrine that God is unable to save but must rely on the will of man who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.

Finally your OP is pathetic in its ignorance and its arrogance!

 

Lux et veritas

I haven't posted on any of these threads in a couple of days. After I read the OP I was so angered by the falsehood it presented I just responded before reading the remaining responses. i believe you made the same point I did but more succinctly. Sorry!

 

Amy

Bless your heart. I love your posts but you really need to read the two articles again. Don't know whether you ever had to diagram or parse a sentence in High School but try that on Article 12.

 

I went through this before with you. You are conveniently ignoring Ephesians chapter 1.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You cannot ignore this to make Eph 2:1 say something it does not. Eph 1:13 clearly shows that a person trusts Christ after hearing the word of truth. Upon believeing God's Word, a person is afterward sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is then that the person is quickened by the Holy Spirit as shown in Eph 2:1.

There are two methods of perverting scripture, to add to scripture, or to subtract or take away from scripture. To argue that Eph 2:1 proves faith comes through the regeneration of the spirit is subtracting from the scriptures, specifically Eph 1:13 in this particular case.

 

Thanks OR. I needed that today!

Well, yes I have done that, but it was like um...........35 years ago....:laugh:


I see what you're saying, but in all fairness, this document could have been worded much better.

 

You are simply wrong. I don't ignore Scripture but you do. You are ignoring the truth of Ephesians 2. You are treating Scripture as if it were a recipe from a cookbook: Start with two cups of flour and add this and that. The fact that the statement you quote is from Chapter 1 of Ephesians does not alter the truth expressed in Ephesians 2:1-8. If you cannot understand the passage from Ephesians 2:4-8 then you will continue to believe that you are the author of your Salvation. Thankfully if you are among the elect God will not hold this lack of knowledge against you.

Ephesians 2:4-8
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Verse 5 states that while we were dead in sin, that is spiritually dead, God made us alive, that is regenerated us. Verse 8 states that God then gave us the faith to believe. If you cannot understand that simple truth I feel for you.