Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

Old Regular, you are correct that Ephesians chapter 1 does not change the meaning of Ephesians chapter 2. However, Ephesians chapter 1 is showing the order of events that take place in salvation, but Ephesians chapter 2 does not show the order of events in salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 is specifically telling us the order that takes place in salvation. This verse concerns nothing else but this order.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The word AFTER is shown twice in this verse and gives the order of events that take place in salvation.

1) A person trusts (believes) AFTER hearing the word of truth. So first a person must hear or read the gospel.

2) AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

It is plain as day for a person who reads this with an honest heart.

You are told this in Ephesians chapter 1. Now when you get to Ephesians chapter 2;

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

And we know from scripture that it is the Spirit that quickens or regenerates a man.

Now I know you won't accept this, because it absolutely disproves your false doctrine, but that is what the scriptures clearly teach. So, first a man must hear the gospel, then faith comes by hearing the word of God, a man believes the gospel, and then receives the Holy Spirit and is regenerated.

It is a false teaching that a unsaved person cannot hear the gospel and believe it. If ever you can accept the clear teaching of scripture, then you will realize that Total Depravity is just plain wrong. Yes, we are dead in sins, but man is able to hear the word of God and believe it.

Why was Jesus always saying to lost people "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear" if it is impossible for a unsaved man to hear and understand the gospel?

Hearing and believeing God's word is a matter of man's will, as clearly shown by Jesus himself.

Matt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

The Lord Jesus showed clearly that an unsaved man has the ability to hear God's word if he is willing. In verse 14 he says, "if ye WILL receive it". That is absolutely clear, it is a matter of man's will if he will listen to the scriptures. Then in vs. 15 the Lord shows that he was addressing all men, for all men have ears to hear. And in vs. 16-17 he compares these unbelieveing men to children in the marketplace. The Lord has piped to them, played music for them, but they refuse to dance. He has mourned to them, but they refuse to lament.

Once you get over your false doctrine and learn that the scriptures clearly teach a man's will is involved in salvation, and that every man has his own free and voluntary will, then you will truly understand the scriptures, but not until.

Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

You can quote Spurgeon or whoever you like, the scriptures show that a man has his own free voluntary will. Once you get this, then you will understand scriptures like this;

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

But back to the original discussion, there are many other scriptures that show a unsaved man first hears the word of God, believes, and then receives the Spirit and is saved.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Clear as day, you receive the Spirit by first hearing and then believeing.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

Again, the scriptures make it absolutely clear here that a person receives the Spirit after believeing. And hearing the word of God comes before believeing. In vs. 40 you see the people believed after hearing Jesus speak.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Once again, it is always the same pattern shown in scriptures. An unbeliever hears the word of God and is convicted as shown in vs. 37. This vs. also shows that the word of God creates desire in the lost person's heart, for they asked "what shall we do?".

Peter told them to repent, (turn from unbelief to believeing on Jesus) and then they would receive the Holy Spirit. NOT BEFORE as you try to teach falsely.

And that a man has a part in his salvation is clearly shown in vs 40 when Peter tells them to "SAVE YOURSELVES" from this untoward generation. In other words, trust in Christ for salvation now, and do not be like the majority of Jews who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah.

You can quote your books and authors all day long, the scriptures show Calvinism false if you are honest enough to accept it.

 

What?


Regeneration:
G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.


Salvation and rebirth are the same thing. If you are reborn, you are saved. Unless you believe in an unsaved born again person.

So yes, you believe in salvation before faith.

 

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." ---Charles Spurgeon

 

That sounds worse!! Not only are they saved before they believe but even before they HEAR the gospel!! That pretty much turns the preaching of the gospel on its head and makes it POWERLESS...

1 Corinthians
1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Darren

 

Good one Jerome! :applause:

Watch em' wiggle around it though.

You are correct Amy. The Lord himself showed that a man is born again by the Spirit.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What Calvinists fail to realize is that a man is called and drawn by the Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is on the outside at this point. And a man's own personal and voluntary will is the doorway into the soul of the man. The Spirit knocks at the door and asks entry, but a man must willingly open the door of his will and heart and welcome the Spirit in. When a man does willingly invite the Holy Spirit in, then the Holy Spirit enters the man and regenerates him. It is then that he is born again.

It is not so much different than human birth. The mother carries a single egg. The father donates many millions of sperm to fertilize the egg. But the egg only allows a single sperm to penetrate and fertilize the egg. When the sperm enters, it dies, decomposes and fertilizes the egg. This is when conception begins and the egg cell begins to divide and multiply.

And we see a comparison like this in 1 Corinthians.

1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Difficult to understand, but I hope you get the idea.

Revelations 3:20 is a perfect picture of salvation and shows the order.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

First, salvation is 100% of God. Jesus through the scriptures and the Holy Spirit calls out to a man. He knocks at the door of every man's heart. So all honor, glory, and credit goes to Jesus. But Jesus will not force his way in, he is a gentleman, not a burglar. Only when a man willingly opens the door of his own personal and voluntary will will Jesus come in. It is then when the Holy Spirit enters a man and regenerates him from within.


How a person who believes in free will believes Jesus enters the heart



How a Calvinist believes Jesus enters the heart.

 

A man physically dead can hear nothing. A man spiritually dead cannot hear the word of God and believe it. I received the following in an email and wondered when I would get to use it. Now seems an appropriate time for you freewillers who save yourself.

Look at verse 8 closely: There are two nouns that can be the antecedent of the pronoun that, grace and faith. The noun grace is obviously not the antecedent of the pronoun that The grace spoken of in this passage is an attribute of God and not the gift in question. The antecedent of the pronoun that cannot be the verb saved. The only noun left that can be the antecedent of that is faith and that faith is the gift of God.

In the little tale above the statement "If your love, faith. and wisdom had won the game, you would think you had done it by yourself. is so true of you freewillers.

 

If the above is really a Spurgeon quote and not taken completely out of context he is wrong. For this reason you really should reveal the source of your Spurgeon quotes. It is only after a person is regenerated that the Gospel Call becomes the Effectual Call.

 

It is here that you show your ignorance. Man does not have a free will. His will is in bondage to sin and Satan. Read in the Gospel of John, Chapter 3:

19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

Amy

Don't make the mistake of assuming that there is a single aspect to salvation. It is true that regeneration is the initial event in Salvation and one who is regenerate or born again is certainly saved, However there are a number of other aspects to salvation which I presented above. I believe you have used the following Scripture from Titus in another thread .

Titus 3:4, 5
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Notice that God in His Mercy saved us by the washing of regeneration,.

Notice that in the passage from Ephesians we read:

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened [made us alive] us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]

In neither passage is any action on man's part indicated. Simply that God in His mercy or grace saved us. It would be beneficial to do a verse by verse comparison of Titus 3:1-8 and Ephesians 2:1-10.

 

Regeneration is one aspect of salvation. But salvation is an all-encompassing term that includes atonement, redemption, regeneration, faith, etc. There are aspects to salvation quite apart from regeneration. And here is the crux of the matter. When a Calvinist says we are regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit ALONE, and that has nothing to do with man, why would anyone argue with that? I must believe and obey, but that is not REGENERATION. You Arminians might try to explain how anyone else BUT God can regenerate a sinner.

The issue rests on the work of regeneration (new birth). Who gives the New Birth - God or man? And understood in that context, I fail to see why anyone would argue against the Calvinistic view of it being solely the work of God!

 

Don't you see what a contradiction this is?

Regeneration is salvation.

Regeneration = spiritual birth = born again.

You cannot be spiritually reborn and unsaved at the same time, which is what you are implying when you say that regeneration is only "one" aspect of salvation. You are saying that once your are born again/regenerated, you are only partly saved.

And those "aspects" come before salvation.

The atonement makes salvation possible because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

Faith is required for there to be regeneration.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

One must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" to be saved.

Once one has believed they are regenerated (born from above) and redemption is complete.

No one has argued with that. God requires faith before He gives spiritual life. That is His way. No one can save themselves and having faith is not "saving yourself". It is God's requirement and the condition for salvation. God is the ONLY One who can raise the dead. Once we meet His condition, He will save us.

I am not an Arminian. And no one has ever said that anyone else can regenerate a sinner.

God

Salvation is the work of God. But He requires man to believe and place his trust in Christ before He will save him. Otherwise, God would be saving unrepentant unbelievers.

 

I think you misunderstand the Arminian view. Regeneration is NEVER the work of man, never will be. Are you trying to claim that a new believer regenerates themselves when they come to Christ and believes or something similar to that? Where did you get that from?

The issue is the chronological order of regeneration not who regenerates man... Either way God is the one whom regenerates man, bottom line, just when, that is the issue.

Darren

 

Hello Benefactor,

I have three things to say regarding this...

(1) John Calvin himself seems to indicate that he believes 'τουτο' (this) refers to salvation by grace as a whole when he says...

As such, here is one Calvinist who is not "arguing his head off trying to convince everyone otherwise."

(2) There are many learned men who have adopted the view that the referent of 'τουτο' (this) is 'πιστεως' (faith) such as Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustine, C Hodge and E.K. Simpson. This understanding is within the realm of being grammatically possible (Peter O'Brien, Pillar N.T. Commentray on Ephesians). These men (not O'Brien) might argue that 'και τουτο' is an idiomatic expression, and as such its gender is not to be strictly taken into account. The point being that language is messy, and there ain't no inviolable grammatical rules when it comes to communicating via the written word.

(3) With all of that said, I agree with you that the referent of 'τουτο' (this) is not 'πιστεως' (faith) but rather salvation by grace through faith as a whole. So, I represent at least one more Calvinist who is not "arguing his head off trying to convince everyone otherwise."

Sincerely,

Brian

 

Actually, I don't misunderstant the Arminian view. I used to teach it and was a strong anti-calvinist at one time!

What I am saying is that due to the rampant confusion on the meaning of biblical terms of specific aspects of salvation, there is great confusion on what actually takes place.

To say regeneration = salvation is to totally miss the key point in this debate. It is one of several vital aspects of salvation, but the two words do not mean the same thing.

 

Seeing as some are into quoting Spurgeon to show he is on "their side", let's hear the prince of preachers from another sermon.

“I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, “You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself.” My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.” (C. H. Spurgeon)

 

What does he mean by "return to Christ"? When did they belong to Christ as to be "returning"?

 

OK but that's a separate issue with someone else. Just the facts (for my reply), God regenerates man bottom line.

You used to me anti-Calvinist, that's always interesting why anyone would take the position of anti rather than non subscriber. To be honest I don't see myself as an Arminian but seems people here say you must be one or the other - If not Calvinist -> therefore Arminian.

Darren