Which "camp" is really the defender of Divine Sovereignty?

Thats the point, if your creative then why dont you come up with a post that embraces what we all believe instead of highlighting differences. You only created this as a talking point brother so we can accentuate differences. Why not do something that really celebrates our common Christian belief system, Glorify s God, etc

I would challenge you Skandelon to use your creative talents in a more productive way.

 

Luke:

OK, I am beginning (only beginning) to get my brain around your point of the origin of sin being God. Allow me to muse for a moment.

God created (Lucifer and man) with the full knowledge (omniscience) of exactly what they would do. We are not told in scripture with any way in which Lucifer was presented with a "choice" but we (many of us) presume that in some way he did.

With mankind, we are clearly presented with the narrative of the tree in the Garden. So was their Really a choice for mankind? Yes and No.

No there was "not really" a choice because made us and new precisely all the "properties" of his creation, nothing "surprises" God.

Yes there was a choice, as indicated by the biblical narrative, but the greater question is why "present" these conditions if "no real choice" existed anyway.

I do not believe,as I know you do, that "intentioned" man to sin. (For the purposes of His glory)

It is a "greater thing" that someone Can sin, but does not, then it is if someone cannot sin and doesnt.

For me ( at the present) the fact that I can sin (and most certainly do sin) reminds me of the fact, that indeed "I am not God" , I am the creature, and must therefore ultimately rely and fall upon God's omniscience, grace etc.

Sorry for rambling like a "blind dog in a meathouse"

 

Yea, I'd say you are definitely making progress by way of understanding my point.

God actively removed his goodness KNOWING what that would cause- yet he did it anyway. That indicates that God meant for evil to exist.

But we also have Bible that clearly says that God causes all things that have ever existed to exist.

"He is before all things and by him all things consist."

Nothing can consist without him. Nothing can even MOVE without him. Nothing.

"In him we live and move and have our being."

With those two truths in mind we are reminded that "God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will" and that "Of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS."

We are mindful that God said in Deuteronomy 32:39 “‘See now that I, even I, am he,
and there is no god beside me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand."

and Is 45:5-7
5 "I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things"

We are mindful that God willed and ordained the greatest sin of all time and brought it to pass (though it was not a sin for him because his motive was good, but he willed that it happen).
Act 4
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

We know that God moves the hearts of men, even evil men, yea the most evil of all men, to do as it pleases Him.
Rev. 17:17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

We understand that nothing ever happens apart from God's decree- good or evil:

Lamentations 3:37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

Logic demands that God intended for all things that ever happen to happen. And Scripture explicitly teaches it.

This makes God GLORIOUS.

The thing that keeps you from being willing to grasp this is you feel it makes God evil somehow. But it does not.

Consider: Is it a sin to cut a child's guts out? Depends on motive, doesn't it? If you are a surgeon trying to save the child's life, then your deed is noble.

If you are a murderer trying to end the child's life then your deed is very wicked.

God does everything for the right motive- for his glory and our good. So when evil befalls us, God willed it, but his motive which he will infallibly accomplish is to bring glory to himself and to bless his children.

This is plainly taught throughout the Scripture.

 

There is little, if any, truth in them at all! Hyper-Calvinism all the way. It makes God one who seemingly enjoys the sin of others.

I remember the first time I heard of Calvinism. I had been saved about two years, and remember thinking how anyone who reads the bible could come up with something like this. I don't see how they could arrive at this conclusion by simply reading the Word of God. It certainly requires input from some so-called scholar, namely Calvin.

 

Robert, what deep secret about Calvin do you know that causes you to constantly take pot shots at him?

 

Also, what is your idea of Hyper-Calvinism....Im curious about that?

 

I admit that I do not like Calvin. Just read the quotes CV1 has posted.

I believe that the doctrines of double predestination along with believing that even people who have never heard the Gospel can be part of the elect are my main objections to hyper-Calvinism.

 

Bro Luke,

I bolded a sentence in this post to address this. How could God "actively" remove His goodness? Please elaborate on this further/farther.

I have a hard time "swallowing" the "For of Him, and through Him and to Him are all things". This is also tying Him to sin. Not all things are "ordained" by Him. When you went to church this morning, did you have a choice in what you wore, or did God "foreordain" you to wear the clothes you wore from "eternity past"? I am not being snotty, but I know a person who told me that at one time he believed God "predestined" the shoes he wore....but after reading, he realized he was wrong. God is not in complete control(meaning that He has given us leeway in choosing the way we live our lives).If He was in complete control, Lucifer would have never sinned. Again, you are tying God to sin, or that is how your belief is coming across. There was NO SIN until Lucifer sinned, rebelled against God, and he and 1/3 of the angels that rebelled with him, were cast out of heaven. Some of them remain bound, reserved until the day of judgement......or it sounds that way according to scripture.

I agree with all of this with the exception of Pilate. Pilate tried to get Him set free, but the Jews cried, "crucify Him, crucify Him". He even washed his hands as a symbol that he was "clean" of this crucifixion(sp?). Pilate knew who He was, or at least I believe he knew. But here's where the rubber meets the road. Christ was "foreordained" to die for our sins. That is 100% guaranteed, without a doubt, bonafide fact!! You can't show me that Lucifer's sinning was "foreordained" as Jesus' death was. I believe that Lucifer had the choice of being obedient to God, or to rebel, and we know what Lucifer CHOSE TO DO. The 1/3 of the angels that fell, also had the choice to obey God or Lucifer, and they fell because they chose to rebel with Lucifer. There was no sin up until this point.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Now, Bro. Luke, here is a scripture that is in one of your favorite books, John.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now, here it states that Lucifer/Satan is the father of lies/lying. He was the one who sinned in heaven, and not God. He is the instigator(sp?) of sins, not God. So, there is no plausible way you can tie God to all things, because "sinning" is part of "all things", and so that blows that theory out of the "H2O". I know!! You are going to say "You just don't get it Bro. Willis", but au contraire, I do. God has given us a "free choice", and with this "free choice", come responsibilty. If He "foreordained" everything we did/do, the responsibilty of our sinswe could lay in His lap. By Him giving us this "free choice", the ball is now in our hands....what are we going to do? Serve Him or Satan....you decide, not Me.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

Further.

The same way you actively remove light from a room resulting in the ensuing darkness.

Did you create the darkness? No. But you caused it. Are you the author of it? No. Nothing is the author of darkness. But you are the reason the room went from light to dark.

Follow?

Then dear brother, you have hard time with God's Word. That is Romans 11:36

According to the Word of God, and in direct opposition to comfortable, palatable religion, they are.

Both. It is asymmetrical. Just as Joseph's brother's threw him in the pit and sold him into slavery, so did God throw him into the pit and have him sold into slavery. They BOTH did it.

Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."

Both Joseph's brothers and God willed Joseph's plight. Both of them caused it. But God's motive was pure, whereas the brother's motive was evil.

Dear brother, this borders blasphemy to say that God is not in complete control. It is not in the Bible. It is a terrible thing to say.

Col 1- "He (Jesus) is before ALL THINGS and by him ALL THINGS consist."

Christ is before Lucifer's sin and by Christ was Lucifer's sin able to exist and come into being.

Lucifer meant it for evil but God meant it for good.

Again Romans 11:36- "For OF HIM and through him and to him are ALL THINGS."

ALL THINGS, Willis- ALL THINGS. That is the Word of God. It does not take faith to beleive what we find palatable. It takes faith to believe the Word of God when it flies in the face of everything we have ever believed. THAT is what takes faith.

The greatest sin in history was the murder of God's Son. God ordained that this great sin would come to pass. God crucified Jesus (see Is 53). The Jews and Romans crucified Jesus. They BOTH crucified Jesus. But God did it for good. They did it for evil.

Yes, Lucifer chose to sin. No one has ever argued against that, I suppose in the history of the Christian Church. Yes, Lucifer chose to sin. There is not need to emphasize this point on which I feel certain every Christian whose ever lived is in perfect agreement.

But God foreordained it. We know this because he foreordains ALL THINGS. I have given numerous verses above that prove this.

Yes, they chose. No one on earth argues otherwise.

Yes, Satan is the Father of lies. No Christian on earth denies this. God is CERTAINLY not the Father of lies. No Christian on earth would argue that he was.

But God decreed it and ordained it. The Bible is abundantly clear on this.

Did God sin when he crucified Christ? NO!

Did Herod and the Jews and the Romans sin when they crucified Christ? CERTAINLY!

Did God foreordain that they would crucify Christ? CLEARLY. Nothing in Scripture is any clearer.

This is how God ordains ALL THINGS, including Lucifer's fall, and yet remains totally free from sin. God's motive for it is PURE!

God's motive in the fall of Lucifer and Adam is no less pure than his motive in the slaughter of Christ.

No one in the history of the Christian church has ever argued that God sinned. That's silly.

Agreed. Instigate and ORDAIN are not at all the same thing.

You must take this up with the Word of God, Willis. God's Word is extraordinarily clear on this fact. You MUST believe the Word of God no matter how roughly in rubs you.

I noticed you did not give any verses for this. This is because the Bible does not teach this.

Men ASSUME certain passages IMPLY free will- the ability to do one thing or the other- it is not in the Word of God.

It is a faulty presupposition men carry to the Word of God. Then they miss much of what the Word of God teaches by interpreting it through faulty presuppositions.

This simply is not so. I refer you to Genesis 50 and Acts 4.

 

Bro. Luke, how does this border on blasphemy???? Here is something to think upon. I work in a hospital lab, and sometimes I go to the floor and draw blood on patients. There have been times when I "passed air", and I know that they heard this, and it embarassed the "living daylights" out of me! Did God "foreordain" this to happen. Did this bring glory to His name? I think not. God will not bring shame upon us. This is what I mean by God not being in control of all things. He allows us to dress ourselves, to pick out which vehicle we buy, etc. He is not a dictator, but God.

God had a "motive" in Lucifer's and Adam's and Eve's fall??? This is a new one to me. When God made all three of them, they were not "not guilty", but they were completely innocent of ever committing a sin. They chose to sin, and God acted accordingly. Do you believe that God made Lucifer, Adam, Eve, and then all mankind, just to toss them into the "fire"?? God made everything that He might get glory for them/us. I admit, none of us will ever know all of God while here in these natural bodies, but when we get there, we'll find out more than we could ever know her.

Agreed!!

The reason why I didn't bother with giving you the verses that "plainly" shows free will, you'd reject them, so I didn't even bother trying to show them to you again.

*sigh* here they come again(scriptures that is):

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Duet 30:19 hebrew word used for choose: bachar Strong's 977

1) to choose, elect, decide for

a) (Qal) to choose

b) (Niphal) to be chosen

c) (Pual) to be chosen, selected

The same hebrew word is used in Joshua 24:15 as well.

Proverbs 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.


The same hebrew word in verse 29 is the same word for Deut. 30:19 and Josh. 24:15.

Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

The same hebrew word here in Isa. 65:12.

So, there are some scriptures that I believe shows free will.

I have come to the conclusion that on here, there is DoG and then "faulty teachings/heresy/blasphemy", etc. I have been called a "semi-pelegianist", "semi-gnostic" simply on the basis of not holding the DoG's as the "creme de la creme" of all theologies. Bro. Luke, you have every right to believe what you want to, and I love you for you being my Brother in Christ, but I wouldn't want to touch the DoG's theology with a 39.5 foot pole. I agree with the "OSAS", but that's about it. I agree(kinda) with the "T" in the TULIP.......I believe we are born "not guilty" and after we are shown by Him that we are lost sinners, then we are totally(sp?) depraved from that point forth....we just aren't born "dead in sins"(our soul, I mean). But the "U", "L", and "I", y'all can have 'em. I love y'all, but not your doctrine. We just will agree to disagree, I guess. Have a good week, Brother!! I love you(I really do mean this!!)!! :thumbs: :thumbs:

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

I am in complete agreance with Luke's post #49.

I'm thinking you are mistaking what Luke is saying. Although, I may be wrong, please forgive if I am.

God's sovereignty in every single event from the crucifixion of Jesus to you passing H3CO2 to a leaf falling from a tree are by God's will, in its deepest sense.

Yet, you are right, God does not directly cause you to do everything. Nor does God directly cause, author, or tempt with sin. I have wrestled with God's sovereignty over evil many times trying to understand how He does it without becoming evil Himself (great mystery). Remember- God chose let Satan fall, let Adam sin, let many people old and young die painful deaths, and yes even for people to go to eternal hell for their sins. God could have prevented any of these things, agreed?

Their are 2 ways that I can begin to understand God's sovereignty in all things.

1. Primary causation: These are things such as our salvation and the works of the Holy Spirit. God directly causes these good things to happen. Many times they are highly personal in His dealings.

2. Secondary causation: These are things that God sovereignly rules and controls to bring about His will. In this we find evil. God isnt the primary author, tempter, or anything close. Yet, the Bible does show that the works of Satan fall under God's allowance, and ultimately His purposes. In the very same breath, God is emotionally grieved, upset, and hurt by these works of evil He sovereignly chooses to allow for His "good" and ultimate purposes. What Luke was proposing in his above posts regarding evil, is that God determines what evil He allows and prevents other evils He does not allow. In a sense we can begin to understand this mystery of God's workings by seeing that He allows certain people or angels to fall greater that others. Use your imagination on how this may play out in line with Scripture.

On a personal note. You may think Im crazy, sometimes I do, hah, but I am confident that when I fall away from God into various sins that God is willing that to happen. It isn't that God likes it or laughs or causes it directly. You could say God withdrawals His grace from my life and I am left to myself to do good, and I fail, everytime. God has a good purpose and has taught me a lot in this. Yet, I am still held accountable and responsible for my actions. It almost leaves me crippled in a sense. When understanding God's sovereignty over my life it sometimes causes me to sit back and be hyper-Calvinist in a sense. Yet, God's word tells me to give life all I got according to what God has revealed. I give it all I got, while understanding that it is God working in me to accomplish His good workings in and through me. Amen?

BTW- all of those Scriptures you quoted under "free will" are correct. God's gives man a free will that is second to God's will. Both wills can't exist in my mind. Either one or the other comes higher. God's will is higher and man's will falls under God's will. All of those Scriptures you quoted fall under the bounds of God's secret things. Read Deut. 29:29. God calls us to act freely under His commands, but our acting is under the sovereign rule of God and His purposes. Therefore it isn't free in the sense that God has nothing to do with it. I hope that makes sense?

 

Brother Willis those Scriptures prove men make choices. Nobody on earth denies that.

What you are not yet able to wrap your head around is the fact that God can foreordain an event, indeed ALL events, and men be making choices the whole time.

You admit that is what happened at Calvary.

You cannot argue that it did not happen with Joseph.

And you ignore the half dozen Scriptures I provided that PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt from the Word of God that God decrees and controls ALL THINGS.


I think you are more willing to accept and adopt what is palatable to you rather than what is clearly taught in Scripture along these lines.

But I love you too, Bro Willis.

God bless!

 

Yes, you represent my sentiments accurately.

 

I will try and not hold this against you!! Ha Ha!! Just kidding there, Bro. Luke!! Also, that's NEVER a good thing, either!! LOL J/K again, Bro. Luke!!

I am not saying I am not mistaking Bro. Luke, either. When you have a keyboard as the only way of conveying your message, things can be taken completely wrong. Keyboards don't have tones, meaning somethings that are meant in a joking manner, can be construed as being hateful, spiteful, etc. It's always easier to explain yourself person-to-person, or at least it is for me.

Things like falling leaves have a purpose, whereas me "passing gas" in a patient's room and therefore, making me feel embarassed, doesn't...or at least I don't think so. When leaves fall to the ground, they "rot" and help make the ground stay fertile....this is their purpose for falling to the ground I believe. Wherefore, the only purpose "passing gas" has, is to take pressure of the digestive system while it is digesting the food. By this taking place anywhere, it doesn't bring glory to God.

God chose to let Lucifer and Adam fall?? I guess you'd have to be right. God may have chosen to let Adam and Lucifer fall, but He never willed that they fell!! God "willed" it to happen?? Forget about it!

Greek word for "willing" from 2Pet. 3:9 Strong's 1014

boulomai

1) to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded

2) of willing as an affection, to desire


This word is taken from Gen. 24:5

Hebrew word for "willing" : 'abah Strong's 14

1) to be willing, consent

a) (Qal)

1) to be willing

2) to consent, yield to, accept

Greek word for will from Rev. 17:17; gnōmē

Rev. 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

1) the faculty of knowledge, mind, reason

2) that which is thought or known, one's mind

a) view, judgment, opinion

b) mind concerning what ought to be done

1) by one's self: resolve purpose, intention

2) by others: judgment, advice

3) decree

Hebrew word for "will" found in Ezra 7:18; rĕuwth(Aramaic) Strong's 7470

18 And whatsoever shall seem good to thee, and to thy brethren, to do with the rest of the silver and the gold, that do after the will of your God.

1) good pleasure, will

From Psa. 40:8!!

8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

The word used as "will" in this verse:

ratsown Strong's 7522

1) pleasure, delight, favour, goodwill, acceptance, will

a) goodwill, favour

b) acceptance

c) will, desire, pleasure, self-will

So when you use the term "its God's will for sin to come about", in essence, you are saying it's His pleasure, self-will/will, acceptance, DESIRE, goodwill, favour/favor, delight, etc. I can not, and will not go along with this doctrine.

So, just by implication, you are tying sin to God. Look at these words used for "will" and contrast them to the words used for "willing".

I guess, Brothers, Luke and zrs6v4, we will agree to disagree. I am now bowing out of this thread, until further notice. We will just go around in circles, and neither side will be willing to budge! i love you both with all my heart!!! :thumbs: :thumbs:!!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

Willis, I will make this as simple as possible. I will do it in a way that can mesh and correct our definitions of God's will. You are seeing it in a different way than I am using it. I can tell . BTW, Im glad we can do these conversations with a keyboard only because I fear that if we were in person you would drive us out of the room with your gas passing. hehe, sorry

God's will for Adam's fall:

1. Did God know it was going to happen before He created Adam?
Answer:yes, God is omniscient

2. Did God want it to happen?
Yes because He wanted to bring His Son in to display His mercy. In a sense He didn't want Adam to sin because He hates sin. So the deepest sense is yes, because without the fall Jesus would never have been sent.

3. Did God directly cause Adam to sin?
No, Satan tempted Adam. Adam chose to sin. God gave Adam a command to obey. Adam freely broke God's command influenced by Satan.

4. Could God have prevented the situation?
Yes, God could have sent Satan directly to hell. God could have worked in Adam's heart to lead Him to be more upright and protective of Eve and himself.

5. Did God desire the fall to happen?
From His emotions, of course not. God is hurt when His people He created for relation disobey and hate Him. It hurts both God and man in their hearts.

6. Did God choose for the fall to come about?
Yes, God sovereignly orchestrated the events of the fall to happen as they did. Everything happened according to God's plan. God's plan wasn't sinful, His plan was redemption. God's plan of redemption wasn't plan B in creation, it was His plan before creation began. Remember my primary and secondary cause statements.

7. Why did the fall happen?
It was the choice of God. That is what I mean by will. His eternal plan. I sense that you mean will as in God's desires or God's commands or something. In the fall much revelation about God is made in regards to His attributes and dealings in all different scenarios.

8. When we die and go to heaven can we sin and fall out? No, we are eternally held in heaven by God with no more sin. God could have done this from the beginning, but chose to have sin to come into the world, chose to allow everyone to fall into sin, chose to allow billions to go to hell, chose to send His Son on a death mission to take wrath, and chose those who He was going to have mercy on. God chooses everything, yet He doesn't change in His perfect goodness. His plan is perfect and I would not have it any other way. In my eyes, I would have thought God would have just prevented sin altogether and let everyone go to heaven, but He didn't. Much mystery to it, but we are to align ourselves to His will (or definite plans which He's sovereign over). In every one of my answers you can insert evil or bad things. You can insert those like Judas, Satan, dieing infants, cancer or anything you think is evil. All of it is in God's hands and everything has a purpose. Nothing happens by accident. No chance or luck in my belief system. hope that clears things up. PS dont agree with me or you will be Calvinistic.

 

Determinism? It’s a heresy, why?

Filed under: Calvinism, Metaphysics, Theology — William Witt @ 3:48 am
I think I must be in a cranky mood today. At any rate, the following is also something I originally put on a certain (NeoCalvinist) Anglican(?) blog in response to the following:

The man born blind in John 9 was not an accident of biology. He was born blind so that the Lord Jesus could give him sight. Joseph was not sold into slavery by accident. He was sold into slavery by the express intended purpose of God to redeem many. The Assyrians did not destroy Israel on their own accord. They came as the arm of God to punish. The Lord Jesus was not crucified by fortunate happenstance. The men who delivered Him up and killed him did so by divine decree. There are no random molecules in the universe. Everything is governed by the decretive will of God. Nothing happens except that He has decreed it from the beginning. No death, no misfortune, no suffering, no sorrow, no misery is beyond his reach, or outside the scope of His will. That is why we can say that everything has purpose in this life, and that everything will eventually reveal the glory of God. We do not have to understand. It is sufficient that God understands.

Providence means that God is capable of bringing good out of evil. But God does not decree or create evil. Evil is entirely the result of the rebellion of creatures, which God permits, but does not cause. Certainly “No death, no misfortune, no suffering, no sorrow, no misery is beyond his reach, or outside the scope of His will.” It does not at all follow that “Nothing happens except that He has decreed it from the beginning.”

God does not decree sin. God hates sin, and his Son died to redeem us from that sin which God hates. To state that God decrees sin is to place on God the responsibility for that which he hates, and condemns, and the effects of which his Son died to alleviate.

The relation between God and creatures is absolutely unique, and not one that any creature can even imagine because all of our knowledge takes place within the finite contingent structures of created reality. But God is not part of that reality at all. We literally cannot imagine the relation between God and creatures, and determinism is as much a case of such an idolatrous attempt to imagine the connection, as are attempts that imply that (as my interlocutor put it), God “struggles with a creation in which random suffering is exactly that – random, devoid of purpose.” Both positions are equally “nonsense.”

The vast majority of Christians throughout history have not found it necessary to posit determinism in order to assert God’s providence and control of his creatures. Indeed, God’s sovereignty is more honored if we recognize that God creates creatures in such a manner as to give them a genuine but contingent created integrity. God is quite capable of working through genuine created causality to bring about his intentions. He does not have to be a determinist to do so. God does not create evil, and he does not decree sin. God does not create or cause that which he hates.

Of course, God is quite capable of using the evil that he does not cause, and which he hates, to accomplish his purposes. Of course, God is capable of working through the sins of Joseph’s brothers or Pharaoh or Pilate to accomplish his purposes. But God did not determine that Joseph’s brothers betray him or that Pharaoh would enslave the Hebrews, or that Pilate would crucify Jesus. To suggest such is close to blasphemy.

I realize such discussions are interminable, and generally raise more heat than light. Rather than enter into endless discussion, I point readers to my philosophical and theological betters. One might read Augustine. But certainly Thomas Aquinas and Richard Hooker have thought through these things as carefully as have Calvin and his successors.

The language of Scripture is phenomenal when it comes to describing God’s relation to creatures, as it is phenomenal when it describes things like the rising of the sun, scientific realities, or God’s body parts (“The arm of the Lord is not shortened . . .”). Scripture nowhere provides detailed metaphysical discussion of such questions as the relation between primary and secondary causality, or, how God works through created contingent events in such a manner as to provide not only for his sovereignty but their integrity as creatures. To assume that it does is to make a category mistake, like those Vatican officials who chided Galileo for contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture about the rising of the sun.

 

There has been in the history of the church reams of paper and gallons of ink spent on discussing questions relating to how divine sovereignty relates to created contingencies. Every metaphysical issue—incarnation, Trinity, creation, grace, sacraments, etc.—is a variation. If it were simply a matter of quoting a few passages of scripture, the issue would have been settled long ago.

Most Calvinists have no idea of just how rich and complex the discussion has been. Needless to say, most Christians have not been determinists. The ecumenically orthodox consensus of the church is that:

1) God is the supreme Good, in whom there can be no evil—not because whatever is, is good, or because something becomes good merely because God wills it, but because God’s nature is inherently good, and God cannot will or create evil.
2) In discussing the relation between Creator and creature, not only divine aseity and sovereignty, but also created contingency and genuine created reality, must be preserved. God creates and works through created contingencies in such a manner that they retain their integrity as created contingencies.
3) Sin exists, but God is in no way the cause of it. Sin is completely contrary to God’s will. God is in no way the cause of the sinful actions of creatures. God permitted, but did not cause, the fall into sin.
4) God is sovereign over his creation. God is present to each creature and each created event in that he gives existence to whatever is. If God were to cease creating and sustaining the universe for even a moment, it would collapse back into nothingness.
5) Although God is not the cause of evil, God is capable of bringing good out of evil, and does so. If God could not bring good out of evil, he would not be sovereign.

The above would be agreed to by Orthodox, by Catholics, including Augustinians, Thomists, Scotists, Dominicans, Molinists, Suarezians, by the vast majority of Protestants, including orthodox Lutherans, the vast majority of Anglicans (e.g., Richard Hooker, John Donne, Joseph Butler), Methodists, and, I think, even most Reformed today, for example, the late Thomas F. Torrance, who wrote a huge amount of material on how the patristic doctrine of creation made a radical change in how Christians viewed the world as compared to paganism, and how this has significant implications for the relation between theology and modern science.

The one exception in the entire tradition would be traditionalist Calvinists. Luther himself was a determinist, but othodox Lutheranism did not follow him in this. There is debate as to whether Calvin was a determinist, or rather, whether determinism was introduced by Beza. In my opinion, a careful reading of the texts indicates that Beza’s supralapsarianism was simply a logical drawing out of the implications of Calvin’s own understanding of providence.

At the same time,there is no inherent connection between a doctrine of Augustinian predestination and determinism. Augustine was the first advocate of unconditional predestination, but he rejected determinism until his dying day. Thomas Aquinas embraced Augustine’s doctrine of predestination, as have many of his followers, but he emphatically rejected determinism because it would make God responsible for sin.

My own thinking on such matters has been greatly influenced by thinkers like Torrance, but also Thomists like Robert Sokolowski, Norris Clarke, Thomas Weinandy, and numerous others. I would also recommend the writings of Anglicans Austin Farrer and Eric Mascall. And, of course, there is the huger discussion in the entire tradition of the church, beginning with the church fathers. Calvinist determinism is just a tributary, and rather a small creek, in the huge river of Christian metaphysics.

I would add to the above that I grant to Calvinist determinism about the same amount of credibility I give to the Orthodox Essence/Energies distinction, to the Non-Chalcedonian Christologies of Copts or Armenians, to Lutheran ubiquity, Roman Catholic transubstantiation, Scotist possible worlds metaphysics, Molinist middle knowledge, or Openness of God theism. Like the above, it is a metaphysical theory that has been embraced by a sizable group of Christians in an attempt to address certain theological problems raised by Scripture, and, in particular, the way in which particular divine and created realities relate. At the same time, each one of these views is a bit of metaphysical speculation that has been embraced by no other Christian body outside the particular body of advocates. As such, while the theories might be right, one tends to think that their continued adherence within the particular group in which they have arisen has more to do with inertia, and preservation of group identity than with well thought out solutions to the problems raised.

Finally, I am aware that Calvinists not only insist that God decrees everything, but that God is not thereby the author of evil, and I am aware of the various ways in which they try to reconcile these two claims. To explain why they can’t be reconciled would require a rather lengthy syllogistic argument outlining various distinctions between necessity, possibility, impossibility, contingency, and various kinds of necessity. However, in short, if God brings things about necessarily, then they are necessary, and cannot not have been. If God brings things about contingently, then they are not necessary, and might not have been. If God decrees all events in such a manner that the fall or sin cannot not have been, then the fall and sin are necessary, and God is the author of evil. This is true even if the necessity of the fall or sin are contingent on human actions, which, in themselves, are voluntary, but nonetheless determined in their outcome by the divine decree. If those human choices are determined by the divine decree in such a manner that they cannot not have been, then God is the author of evil.

However, that God is the author of evil is a heresy not only contrary to the plain teaching of Scripture, but also condemned universally by the Christian tradition–with the single exception of Calvinist determinism.

http://willgwitt.org/theology/determinism-its-a-heresy-why/comment-page-1/

 

Willis, join the "you are just not smart enough" crowd :thumbs: :laugh:

It grows with each one of his posts...

 

Webdog, I am a 'charter member" of that club.

 

Quantum,
Great read, thanks.........enjoy your day off. I gotta go into D town today to do some shopping.:love2: