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Which Coming?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Apr 21, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Yes, yes, yes, more backslapping. You know, it is so obvious that the church would go through THE tribulation (not just tribulation), that Paul and Peter and John and Luke and James and Matthew and Mark spend all that time on what we are supposed to do during the tribulation.

    Actually, now that I think about it, THEY NEVER TELL US WHAT TO DO IN PREPARATION OR DURING IT.

    Just a quick story, I live in Orlando, where Rosenthal is. I was at Zion's Hope before it became the Holy Land experience. I was there with my fiance and noticed a painting of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I was pointing out what each one was when Rosenthal walked up from behind me. He asked if I was a Bible student. I said I was finishing my undergrad work. He asked which school I attended. I asked him if he had ever heard of Luther Rice Seminary (a pretrib Southern Baptist school with an extension in Orlando). He grumbled that he was verrry familiar with them.

    It was funny.
     
  2. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    While we are appointed for tribulation, we are not appointed from THE tribulation. In fact, Paul says that in 1 Thess 5:9.
     
  3. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." --1 Thess 5:9

    1 Thess 5:9 doesn't say "tribulation", it says "wrath", hence the name pre-wrath.

    Legs to Stand On
    By Rev. Charles Cooper

    The Church of Jesus Christ is exempted from the eschatological wrath of God. On this point, posttribbers, midtribbers, and pretribbers are in perfect accord. The message of 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9 is unmistakable in asserting that believers are promised to be delivered from the eschatological wrath of God. The problems begin in light of this fact. Precisely, what is the wrath of God and when does it occur? What method will God use to deliver His people? Will He remove them out of the world or merely protect them while in the world?

    SOURCE
     
  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    1 Thess 4:13-18 explains what happens to believers prior to 1 Thess 5:9. Think context here.

    Btw, all of the tribulation is the wrath of God, not merely the last few weeks.
     
  5. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    That is a matter of interpretation.

    I agree with the midtrib, posttrib and pre-wrath interpretation that recognize the involvement of both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan during Daniel's Seventieth Week.
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Are not the 4 horsement judgment upon the world?

    Doesn't the Scripture ask rhetorically that if calamity is in a city, isn't it God who was behind it?
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Sigh!

    -------------------------------------

    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    AMen, Brother Daniel David -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  9. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I meant to say that we are not appointed FOR the Daniel's 70th week.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Sounds something like what
    John Darby started [​IMG]

    Anyway, yes, i believe that.
    I've been pretrib for 52 years now.
    Recon if i'll yo-yo somewhere else soon :D
     
  11. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    I would rather be preparing for Tribulation and get surprised by Rapture than be found preparing for Rapture and get surprised by Tribulation.

    I believe the timing of the rapture is a non-dogmatic doctrine, so this will be one of the "matters of interpretation" that we will have to agree to disagree about.
     
  12. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    I would rather agree with Paul and be pretrib. But, as you said, we can disagree about agreeing with Paul.
     
  13. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    You mean your interpretation of Paul.

    There is no known writing existing, or referred to by other writers, of the pre-trib rapture teaching prior to 1830. None of the early Church fathers or anyone else throughout Church history wrote about the saints being raptured before the end-time Great Tribulation. This does not conclusively mean that the theory is false, only that it is a historical fact that this teaching did not exist among the early Christians or the Church fathers or any Christians throughout history until 1830.

    Reportedly the origin of the pre-trib rapture teaching was with a fifteen-year-old girl named Margaret MacDonald in the town of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Supposedly in 1830 she had a dream or vision that Christians were raptured just prior to the Great Tribulation. In 1831 or 1832 a Presbyterian pastor in London, England named Edward Irving heard about this dream or vision that Miss MacDonald had and started teaching it to his congregation. These are well-known reports among scholars of eschatology.

    These reports concerning the origin of the pre-trib rapture theory may or may not be true. What is well-documented is the fact that John Nelson Darby, the founder of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, after visiting Miss MacDonald began teaching this new theory.

    Later, by 1917, C. I. Scofield had published his improved edition of the Scofield Reference Bible which contained the dispensational pre-tribulation teachings of Darby and others. Soon many Bible Colleges such as Moody Bible Institute and seminaries such as Dallas Theological Seminary became staunch promoters of dispensational theology that included the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I'd rather know
    the truth as taught in the Holy Bible.

    BTW, when you start talking about what
    you would really must do to keep
    your wife and children (and other wards
    which the Lord might have given you)
    from suffering in the TRIBULATION PERIOD
    JUDGEMENT -- then the posties will not
    talk to you and you will be banned
    (nobody wants to talk murder/suicide
    even if A/C inspired).

    :eek:
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    What, you mean like them believing in an imminent return? Kind of hard to be imminent if you can count down the days.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The term "pre-tribulation rapture" was
    not used prior to 1830.

    In fact, there was hardly any true Christian
    up to about 1750 who believed there would
    be a Millinnial Kingdomless 1830.
     
  17. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    The Apostle Peter did not believe that Jesus would return at any moment after He ascended into heaven. Jesus, before His ascension, told Peter that he would live to be an old man, which would be many years later, and how he would die to glorify God (Jn. 21:18-19).

    Paul knew that he was a chosen vessel unto the Lord to bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel (Acts 9:15). The apostle knew that the rapture would not take place before this ministry was accomplished.

    Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit of Christ, wrote concerning the rapture, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by [concerning] the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by [concerning] our gathering together unto him....Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thess. 2:1-3).
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    NetPublicist: "What is well-documented
    is the fact that John Nelson Darby, the founder
    of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren,
    after visiting Miss MacDonald began teaching
    this new theory."

    These lies may be "well-documented" but they are still lies.

    John Nelson Darby did NOT found the Plymouth Brethren.
    In fact, in the 1830s the Plymouth Brethren was about as
    much like herding cats as the IFB is today [​IMG]

    John Nelson Darby never met with Miss MacDonald.

    Miss MacDonald had no pre-trib extra-bibilical revelation.

    Miss MacDonald had her visions in 1830 or 1831.
    John Nelson Darby's pretribulation writings were first
    written in 1828.

    To thier collective shame, ignornat posties know more about
    Miss MacDonald than educated premies :(

    [​IMG]
     
  19. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs New Member

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    William Kelly, Brethren member and Darby disciple destined to become the editor of Darby's many writings. Kelly's revisionism included words subtly added, subtracted, and changed in old documents. This long covered-up dishonesty, engineered mostly during the latter half of the 1800's, resulted in Kelly being able to claim that the Irvingites never taught pretrib so that he could falsely — and brazenly - credit Darby with it!

    But the most insidious aspect of Kelly's handling of Darby material is the way he inserted "mature" footnotes in Darby's earliest works, that is, taking statements written by Darby many years later, when Darby was prophetically much more developed, and inserting them as "explanatory" footnotes in his earliest writings and giving the false impression that Darby had believed certain things years before he actually believed them!

    SOURCE
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I pray daily for Brother Tim, but i
    consider his Last Trumpet
    an unfactual source of information. I'll not be
    changing my statement. In fact, i find the
    posties insistance on the recentness of
    the Pretribulation Rapture Theory to be
    projection. "Projection" is the psychological
    phenomonena where one accuses another of
    one's own flaws, shortcomings, etc.
    It is the Post-tribulation Only Rapture
    Theory that is new (probably developed wholy
    within the recent 20th Century (1901-2000).
     
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