Which do you trust, God or science?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by just-want-peace, Jan 27, 2005.

  1. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    Bear with me, as I try to understand the reluctance of some to take God at His word, but believe “SCIENCE” instead when the two don’t gee-haw.

    1-What is the absolute base, bedrock, or foundation for determining the age of earth, artifacts, fossils, etc etc? Now I don’t want a long scientific explanation that I can’t grasp, but in simple words, where/what is the proven, unchallenged parameter, upon which the determination of the age of any artifact or fossil, that is beyond our present ability to observe, is based? Allow me to be a bit ridiculous here; is there anything that is as solid as if ( please note “AS IF”, not to be taken literal) you found a bronze war-ax that was stamped “MFG IN MESOPOTAMIA IN 3008 BC”? This is not debatable (excluding a forgery) so this is a fact that you could date similar objects to, or date those found in the same area/level of the discovery

    2- Suppose an archeologist unearthed some human bones that happened to be the remains of Seth. What would forensics claim as the age of this man when he died? Note his age according to God’s word:
    Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
    I submit that modern science would claim his age at death would be 80 min, to 100 max. Yet, if you trust God’s word, the “scientific estimate would be off more than 800 years. WHY?? Simply because this age is no longer realistic for any human, so the results are adjusted to what is reality TODAY! They would judge the remains by today’s faster aging standard to determine the “age at death”. Quite similar to forensics dating a murder victim as: Male, 25-30 YO, etc.

    The point I’m trying to find, is what is the foundation that the Old Earth/Evolutionists are using to justify their beliefs? The foundation, please, not an essay on processes etc.

    Now before you challenge, I do not have any foundation to believe YOUNG EARTH/CREATION other than the word of God; in other words since there are two contrasting interpretations of existing evidence, I CHOOSE to believe God over SCIENCE. So please, don’t start the old complaint that I can’t prove my beliefs either. I’m admitting this up front.

    The difference is that I admit I’m going on faith; you tell me what you are using that IS NOT FAITH, but concrete facts!

    If I did not know the Scripture, then I would have no problem accepting the scientific explanation, BUT I DO KNOW what God said, so I look at this whole subject in a different light than the unknowing or the unbeliever. :confused: :confused:
     
  2. Scott J

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    I am still YEC but the best evidence for several forms of OEC are Genesis 1:1 and studies of the universe.

    I have debated UT against the assumptions made to date the universe but of all the dating schemes used this is by far and away the best one. I consider all of the ones used to date the earth highly suspect.

    Chemical dating is relative to too many variable factors and the primary means of validating the results is the geologic column which is itself a mountain of assumptions with no real, tangible proof.

    Additionally, there are many anomalous fossil finds. So even if chemical dating were somehow accurate, I am not sure that it would provide categorical proof of the ages of fossils. If I am not mistaken, fossils aren't even found directly in the geologic samples used to date them. The samples are taken from around that particular layer.
     
  3. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace
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    OK, I can see where you're coming from on this; not my belief, but it's not clarified either way, so room for honest disagreement.

    Clarify this a bit further, if you will. I still am looking for that one piece of evidence that nails the unimpeachable "written in stone base" to proceed with the supposed "FACTS".

    Interesting observation here! Seems that I've read (years ago) fossils being dated as "10,000,000" years old because they were found in certain strata. Then later, rocks were dated as "10,000,000" YO because there were imbedded within certain fossils.

    Somehow one or the other had to be first dated & the how & why is my question!

    Thanks for bringing up this point!
     
  4. Benfranklin403

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    "1-What is the absolute base, bedrock, or foundation for determining the age of earth, artifacts, fossils, etc etc? Now I don’t want a long scientific explanation that I can’t grasp, but in simple words, where/what is the proven, unchallenged parameter, upon which the determination of the age of any artifact or fossil, that is beyond our present ability to observe, is based?"

    You are asking the impossible. That is, it is impossible for you to fully understand and have confidence in the dating methods without many months of study. Of course if you were not skeptical, it would take less study, but still it would take lots of study. I could give you an explanation of a specific dating method but you would not fully understand or trust the explanation without a great deal of study. Virtually all creationists resist this sort of study because the the topic is upsetting to them and they really don't want to seriously consider that they might be wrong.
     
  5. LadyEagle

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    I believe God made everything around 7000 years ago and, being the great creator of everything and the greatest artist of all time, He created some things to look old. [​IMG]

    The explanation is just so simple. [​IMG]
     
  6. donnA

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    You know I really love the beauty of really old stuff, furniture and vintagey looking items, the troubl eis it costs too much, so an modern art for is to learn to 'antique' them yourself, or buy them(cheaper) from an artist who has perfected it.
    So LE, it could be He made them look old.
    I had a thread a few days ago on not beleving God, this is one of the topics I had in mind when I started that thread. People who beleive in God, but don't beleive Him when He tells us about the creation. He did it, and He says He did it in 6 days. In those same verese He also tells us how long a day is, and evening and a morning (basically 24 hours)v.5, 8,13, in v. 14 He creats lights in the sky, and they are for telling day and night and marking time passage,and says it is day 4, so the next day being day 5 has it's time marked,as being distinctly different by the passage of time as a different day, again basically 24 hours. Nothing exsisted between verses 1 and 2, so how there be evolution during even the space between verses 1 and 2?
    Fact is the only way any christian can believe in evolution is becasue they do not believe God. For them 'science' is the final authority.
     
  7. Craigbythesea

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    The Bible says absolutely nothing about the age of the earth, but we know for a fact from biology, geology, paleontology, palynology, physics, chemistry, and astronomy that the earth is billions of years old. There is no more evidence for a young earth than there is for a flat earth (indeed, there is even less).

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Craigbythesea

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    The fact is that most born-again Christians believe in evolution—especially those who have made it past the second grade. :D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Deacon

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    Originally posted by Just-want-peace:
    Here's just a start:
    </font>
    • The God Most High, the LORD of all creation, can be partially known through His creation (Romans 1:20). We are held accountable to Him just by what can be observed in nature.</font>
    </font>
    • Our living God is trustworthy amd does not decieve us (Titus 1:2).</font>
    </font>
    • All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all: yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them, 2 Peter 3:16 (Westminster Confession of Faith, paragraph 7).</font>
    Science or God presents a false dicotomy.

    Rob
     
  10. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    Craigbythesea believes
    I have to disagree. We really don't know and the best we can do is guess. We have no facts to go by here except what God has revealed to us. This may be what you believe but it is still a matter of faith not facts.

    The real truth is we understand nothing. The more I learn about science the more I understand that it explains nothing. We can make observations and by those observations make predictions about future events, but we can explain nothing.

    Take the electric light for example. You know when you flip the switch it comes on. You can predict that it will do the same thing next time. Perhaps like me you have studied electrical engineering. You can explain to me how alternating current fluctuates the voltage in the line 60 times a second and how free electrons are running up and down the wire. You may understand everything from the power plant to the filament. But you still cannot begin to answer the question why? Why is there electric charge. How can a sub atomic particle carry a charge to start with? This principle is true in all of the fields we call science.
     
  11. Charles Meadows

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    Fact is the only way any christian can believe in evolution is becasue they do not believe God. For them 'science' is the final authority.

    This is a completely inaccurate statement. Many Christians who accept some or all of the evolution theories do not think it is wrong to ask questions or to challenge HUMAN doctrinal positions if they do not seem to be correct.
     
  12. blackbird

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    Any theory that doesn't add up to the revealed, inspired, infallable, inerrant word of God we call Holy Scripture---falls short of the glory of God!!! Evolution falls short of the glory of God!!
     
  13. PastorGreg

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. donnA

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    The fact is that most born-again Christians believe in evolution—especially those who have made it past the second grade. :D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, so your saying I'm dumb if I believe God and not man's faulty science?
    So dumb I must be, because I believe God.
    Since when is it ok to disbelieve what God has said just because man think sthey have proven Him wrong. If the first thing God told us is wrong then what makes anyone believe the rest of it is true?
     
  15. donnA

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    I have to disagree. We really don't know and the best we can do is guess. We have no facts to go by here except what God has revealed to us. This may be what you believe but it is still a matter of faith not facts.

    The real truth is we understand nothing. The more I learn about science the more I understand that it explains nothing. We can make observations and by those observations make predictions about future events, but we can explain nothing.

    Take the electric light for example. You know when you flip the switch it comes on. You can predict that it will do the same thing next time. Perhaps like me you have studied electrical engineering. You can explain to me how alternating current fluctuates the voltage in the line 60 times a second and how free electrons are running up and down the wire. You may understand everything from the power plant to the filament. But you still cannot begin to answer the question why? Why is there electric charge. How can a sub atomic particle carry a charge to start with? This principle is true in all of the fields we call science.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Why should we guess when God tells us? Craig's 'proof' is to site man , not God.
    Soem christians can not reconcile God's truth to man's misunderstandings of 'science', so they take man's words over God's.
    This si quite pitful for christians to not believe God.
     
  16. donnA

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    AMEN Blackbird!!! [​IMG]
     
  17. Charles Meadows

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    DonnA,

    Your statement IS false - you said that those who believe evolution do not believe God. What many of these do not believe is the HUMAN insistence on a literal Genesis.

    I do not claim to be an "evolutionist" - but I do believe that Genesis 1 was not intended to be literal. I believe this not so much because of what science tells us but because of the nature of the writings.

    I believe God over all men.

    But I would generally believe an educated man/woman who has studied his field thoroughly over someone who has no training in that field at all.

    Many (not all) of the most vocal young earth creationists have studied neither theology nor science - yet they claim to be experts in both.
     
  18. av1611jim

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    May I offer an illustration of one of the absurditites of "scientific" calculations?
    Craig mentioned Astronomy. Wonderful things,...the stars. Really neat to gaze at them and wonder how far away they are.
    So some "scientist" comes along and thinks, "I know a formula for determining the distance of something using triangulation"
    If you know the distance of two points, a and b, and the two angles of a base being equal, c, then using some fancy mathematics, you can determine the height of the triangle. I remember this from my Geometry days. :confused:
    Ok, so , these guys assume they can figure out how far Star "a" is from the earth. The problem is this. The required distance from a to b is so small anywhere on earth that they use one spot on earth for one angle, then wait 6 months or so until earth is on the other side of its orbit to obtain the other. Then they guess the distance between the two points in our orbit, using these two infinitly small angles, they think they can "mathematically" determine the distance from Star "a".
    You can readily see many problems with this formula. First, how do you know for sure that you got the exact spot in our orbit to get the first angle? Secondly, how do you know you got the exactly corresponding spot in our orbit for the second angle? And third, how do you know you got the exact distance from point a to b?
    This formula works for distances where you can determine the angles, and the distance of a to b accurately, but when you are talking about such great distances it breaks down into a pile of uncertainty.
    I am no mathematician, but I am not stupid either. Even with such exact sciences as Mathematics, eventually it breaks down, because man is hopelessly finite. Creation, though finite, is so much bigger than we are, that we have no choice but to believe God.
    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  19. Scott J

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    Read the geneology of Jesus Christ and then cross reference that to Genesis especially the account of how God made Adam directly and not by a process of evolution- and gave specific ages for him and his descendents.


    There could be missing generations I suppose... but not 10 million years worth.
     
  20. Benfranklin403

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    "Any theory that doesn't add up to the revealed, inspired, infallable, inerrant word of God we call Holy Scripture---falls short of the glory of God!!! Evolution falls short of the glory of God!!"
    ........................................
    If you live by the above standard, you would never study or learn anything except the Bible. Surely you don't mean to imply that. There are many important facts and theories that are not discussed in the bible and yet are worth knowing. Your comment above is a sure-fire receipe for ignorance!
     

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