Which gifts are for today?

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

The gifts are all still in effect. (all 9 of them).

the people that say they are gone are the ones that don't see them happening at their church!!

Selah,

Tam

 

"I tawt I taw a puddy tat!"
Ed

 

Tamb-lady? Where do you get 9? I have counted at least 24 ennumerated in Scripture, with double figures found in I Cor. 12, alone. Just askin'!
Ed

 

1 Cor 12-28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

That's the 9 I am speaking of, but hey, if you found more, great!!

Peace,

Tam

 

I beleive they are still working in the church today. Some are more prominent than others. But they are still here or how else would the church be edified?

 

I have no problem understanding the eight that you mention, Tam, but to the best of my understanding the Lord does not give new apostles in His church, though some men take this title--being a pastor.

It is my understanding that a person had to see Jesus on earth while He was here to be an apostle of Jesus Christ.

I am open to receiving any gift that the Holy Spirit wants to give me. My focus personally is to really love people whether kids have orange or green hair. I know these fads will pass and underneath all the nose rings, etc. is a never dying soul. Actually, I never have had a problem with youth like this. Often the older people are the ones who try our patience. At times in churches people try to divide the congregation over various things.

I try to witness to at least one person per day, as the Spirit of God prods me in this area of my spiritual life. Most of the upper tier of Africa is 98-99% Muslim. As Christians we have our work cut out for us to do.

I am not afraid of His gifts because they always come from my perfect Lord God.

 

There are two schools of thought on this (on my side of the aisle that is). The one I have believed is that the miraculous gifts are the ones that passed away. That being the gifts of tongues, the interpretation of tongues, healings and miracles. Those four had a distinct purpose and use and were gone very early in church history. They were basically associated with the Apostles.

The second thought is that all of the "gifts" were supernatural, i.e. miraculous in there execution and thus they all were associated with the early church and the authenticating of the Gospel. They all have then passed away.

Daughter, my advice is to seek God and the ministry He would have you do. If the "service gifts" are still active you will know what your ministry is and you will be involved. Whether we still get gifts or whether God just "calls" us to a certain ministry we need to seek God, and serve others in the ministry God directs us to. Loving others as an expression of our faith in Christ is the key element in the Christian life.

In Christ,
Brian

[ January 24, 2006, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Ray, we went through the Apostle thing awhile back. Most of us came to the conclusion that there are a lot more than 12, that one does not have to see Jesus to be an Apostle.

The meaning changed to mean missionaries.

the link is here.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3441.html?

It's called are there Apostles in the world today?

God bless,

Tam

 

For all:
There are the WORDS of several apostles found today. Most of the NT scripture we have today is generally ascribed to one or another apostle- with possible exceptions for Luke's writings, Hebrews and Jude. (I think a case could be made that Luke, and who I think authored Hebrews are apostles, as well, but this can o' worms will not be opened today, at least not by me.) And yes, there were more than 12 apostles, unquestionably, with the additions of Paul, Barnabas, 'James the Just', and Matthias making at least 16 easily known.

There is at least one Apostle 'in view' today. I tend to think He's pretty important. (Heb. 3:1)!

I am curious as to what 'new revelation' changed the meaning of apostle to mean missionary.

Back to the tam-lady. I see the nine you were refering to in I Cor. 12:28. Some others are named earlier in the chapter including the gifts of knowledge and faith, and that gets over ten. Rom. 12 and Eph. 4 have extended passages on the same subject, as well, but not as long as I Cor..

For the rest, I would offer an example of our own church as touching these gifts. Also touches on Ray's last sentence. Some five years ago, our church stepped out on faith with four men making a mission trip to El Salvador. We took up an unannounced special offering for this, (as the opportunity for this popped up almost overnight.) and raised enough for three round trip tickets and the fourth for one way in that offering. (The two largest men humerously said that neither of them would be the one returning by boat! ) Our church started to grow by leaps and bounds from that time forward, and has continued until now. A side effect was that four individuals (two husband and wife couples) became our new youth leaders, after one of the original four who had been the youth leader for a couple of years, married and took a job away from here and moved away. I said to one of our deacons, that we have had very poor success with 'revivals' since that time, as three of the four I believe, have the gift of evangelist, and do it, and the 'visiting evangelist' finds little for him to do.
I mused that we don't stop being 'revived' long enough to HAVE a 'Revival'. We have had about 100 on one or more mission trips to various places over the years since then, with as high as four trips in a year, and that is growing as well. The gifts and callings of God are indeed irrevocable. (Rom. 11:29) BTW, we are a fairly modest 'country church' with an average attendence, now of maybe 300. Five years ago we did very well to hit 150. Of those, we have lost at least 50, mostly by death, including my own mother, a 60+ year SS teacher, and my brother, a one-time youth leader and trustee, at the young age of 50, but also with several relocations. And I can also assure you that the current pastor is in less than no danger of being mistaken for Spuergeon, Edwards, or R.G. Lee in the pulpit. It is amazing what the Lord can and will do when we don't stand in the way. Sorry for the long-winded post. In His grace,
Ed

 

Well, here's another list!

1 Cor-7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

All the gifts are in existance today, no matter how many there are!!

Peace,

Tam

 

EdSutton,

Your story was encouraging to all of us.

Being a pastor I have always felt that those who go to other churches because of job relocation are really not a loss to us, because they are a blessing to other people. In a real sense they are never lost from the home church where they, perhaps got saved or were matured in the faith.

Great story and thanks . . . Sorry for the lose of you Mom and brother. Now they are in His Presence forevermore and one day the circle will 'not be unbroken.'

Sounds like your church is really interested in foreign missions. That is one of the reasons why the Lord is blessing your congregation.

 

'tam' writes:
"All the gifts are in existance today, no matter how many there are!!"

This may or may not be true, but the two sets of verses with 'lists' say nothing either way about this.

Ed

 

Daughter, you are so welcome! I can only speak for myself, but I'm always happy to do my bit to add to the accumulated ignorance on any Biblical subject.
Seriously, check out anything I may say against Scripture. It will shed a lot of light on the commentary. Not to mention, the commentator.
In His grace,
Ed

 

Daughter, on a serious note, the topic heading, asked the question of which gifts are for today?
An easier answer from Scripture is which gifts may have been temporary. Scripture gives some hints as to this. It does not, for example, make any blanket statements that some gifts are 'permanent' and some are 'temporary', at least IMO. Of the 20+ gifts mentioned, the one that seems to be at the top of all the lists, where it is mentioned, is the gift of apostle. Paul seems to give as one of the evidences that he was, in fact, an apostle was that he had seen the Lord. (I Cor. 9:1) Couple that with Paul's statement that I believe was true at least up until the Revelation and John was that "And last of all, He (Jesus) was seen of me also, as one born out of due time." (I Cor. 15:8), and I would say that one could make a case that apostle was a 'temporary' gift. Is this in fact, what is referred to here? I tend to doubt that this is a 'qualification'. Apollos will be spoken of, IMO, in a collective sense with Paul as 'apostles'. (I Cor. 4:6,9-10 He is also listed with Paul and Cephas, clearly apostles, in I Cor. 3. Timothy and Titus, IMO, based on some other Scriptures and Epaphroditus, specifically ("your apostle") are some others referred to as well. All these were probably a direct result of Paul's ministry. They would not "...have seen the Lord...", in the sense Paul uses, according to the Biblical record.
Ed

 

So the question becomes- 'Are there Apostles today?' My answer is (Don't think I am mistaking myself for James!) "I don't know." I tend to think the 'reason(s)' for this gift have passed. One of the reasons, as I read Scripture anyway, was the confirming of the message (absent the yet to be written NT) that was preached after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. We now have the completed Scripture. Ergo, what is that particular need? In the sense of 'messenger', I suggest that the 'gift of apostle' is not necessary, but today we surely see 'works' today that are consistent with the ''works' of an apostle'. These works alone do not 'demand' a particular 'gift' to accomplish.
As to some of the 'wannabe' apostles, I suggest checking them against Scripture. I would warn any, that there are more than enough false apostles around (at least the last time I checked) and no lack of those spoken of in Rev. 2:2 who say they are apostles and are not! I Jo. 4:1 and Rev. 2:2 give some pretty good advice. Put 'em to the Biblical test. Be a Berean. See if what is said is so. Scripture does not speak 'specifically' to this question. Some of what I have concluded so far is opinion, based on Scripture, as I read it. Realize that it is that. I would sugest that, as opinion, it is no better than that of any other. But I would likewise caution against any 'ex cathedra' pronouncement from anyone on this. We have more than enough false apostles already. Why add more to the crowd?
In His grace,
Ed

 

As Ed noted above one of the qualification of being an apostle was they had to see the Lord. And yet many saw and followed Him who were not part of the Apostolate.

As to apostles today--personally I do not think they exist. Those who claim they are apostles usually place that mantel on themselves, which really makes one curious.

The greatest Apostle is written about in Hebrews 3:1, Jesus our Lord.

 

Ray Berrian wrote:
"As Ed noted above one of the qualification of being an apostle was they had to see the Lord."

Ray, with respect, I don't believe that is an accurate representation of what I said.
I mentioned that Paul seemed to give 'seeing the Lord' as 'evidence', not as a qualification. I said I tended to doubt this was a 'qualification', citing Apollos, Titus, Epaphroditus, etc., as examples who in fact did not see the Lord at least according to the Biblical record. I have no problem with being misunderstood, but I do get somewhat irked at being misrepresented. Fair enough?
In His grace,
Ed