Featured Which is worse?

Two salesmen met on a train. One said if you buy my pig in a poke, I will buy yours for the same price. I think it unwise and certainly unbilbical to buy either mystery meat, when true spiritual meat is offered free of charge from God's Word.

 

:smilewinkgrin::thumbs::thumbs:

 

The question should be, which is true?

However, the OP is a tacit capitulation to my argument, that you believe that those who choose Christ, do so because they are better people than those who do not.

 

Person 3; God, in his forknowledge, looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back. They are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one, Ps 53:2-3. This is what God had to choose from when He choose his elect before the foundation of the world, Eph 1. God gave them to Christ in a covenant relationship with his Son to die on the cross and reconclie them back to him. This shows the depravity of man and the grace of God.

 

Babes in Christ are born again children. When we are regenerated we do not lose our fleshly nature but carry it with us along with the Spirit, that's the warfare Paul tells us about that goes on inside of the regenerated child of God.

 

John 6:37-41 says that Christ died only for those that God gave him and that he would not lose one of them but raise them all up at the last day. Does that sound like he is talking about all mankind?

 

Not at all, Chuck. You think they are better by nature. I believe, and Paul and Jesus agree, that only God is good, and that any righteousness or goodness one hasis only by virtue of one's union with Christ, and that no one choses to enter that union.

There was no difference between Jacob or Esau. The difference was in God's purposes according to election.

But now you have explicitly capitulated.

 

John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him tha t sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Why were they given to him, Verse 40 "...all that see and Believe on Him, may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day."

Paul answers why the Father Gave them to Christ in Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Whom the Father knew them He gave to Christ. He called them and justified them and glorifeid them all based on what He Foreknew. It comes down to what God knew and those He Predestineated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son and gave them to Christ as He tells us in John 6:37-41.
All who would believe were given to Christ, not all God selected randomly, but whom God Foreknew.

I know many don't see God's foreknowledge goes that far but Gos is Omnisiceint and God knows how many hairs we have on our head, do you really think God couldn't know who would Beleieve on the Son before they were even born? God knew man would fall and made the plan of salvation. Do you think He didn't know that before He created Adam and Eve that it would be them who fell and not Cain? Do you think God didn't know Cain would choose not to offer the proper sacrifice and kill Abel? He knew all of this therefore He knew what choices each and everyone would make before we were even born and He presdestined those HE KNEW would chose positively to Believe on HIS DEAR SON.

 

Which is worse? It's like asking who is more wet; the person who dives into a pool or the person who jumps into a river. Wet is wet. Sin is sin. One of the assumptions of the OP is that we somehow know the mind of God in regards to who will inherit eternal life. The secret things belong to God (Deut. 29:29). Whether you are a Calvinist, Arminian, or semi-Pelagian; dying in sin consigns the individual to hell. How worse can that get?

 

Not in God's eyes. Both are evil. James 2:10

 

We believe God has given man the same as you. We just believe that man still rejects that. (2 cor 2:14)

 

When it comes right down to it there is only one reason anyone is sentenced to the Lake Of Fire and suffers the second death.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev. 20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 15 tells us whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
How does one not have their name written in the book of life? By not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Salvation is by Believing on Jesus Christ condemnation comes from not beleiving on the Lord Jesus Christ that what Christ said.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Verse 48 He that rejeceth Me and receiveth not my words shall be judged in the last days.

The issue of ones eternal home whether with God forever or seperated from Him forever comes down to rejection of Christ. The one who rejects Christ is condemened already. God didn't choose who would accept or reject God elected us based on what HE knew beforehand about the choice one would make to reject or receive Jesus Christ. Salvation is the free gift of God given to all who will accept Him, and God knows exactly who will and who will not accept Him. Based on that knowledge peter say we are Elect, 1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Paul in Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

That God foreknew and therfore Predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son, to make us Christlike, to maker us righteous, justified, sanctified, regenerated to be SAVED.

It is all based on HIS Foreknowledge of us.

 

First of all, this is a very good thread regardless of the fact that the subject is well talked about here. If only we could get to the nub on another point of theology (the imminent return of the Savior for His elect) better yet.

Well said.

As a side note, it is hard for me to get past the fact that on hearing the gospel the first time, I didn't respond in a positive way. And yet I must (if I'm saved) be of the elect. It wasn't until I had heard the gospel numerous times that I believed. Is my experience the norm? I don't think so. And so it is, we tend (I believe) to have our pre-determined outcome to any theological debate and go searching for Scriptural support where we can find it.

The debate here is well argued on both sides. But for me personally, I don't see any Biblical way that I can take any of the credit for my salvation in all it's complexity. I tend to believe that Calvinism has it correct, man is totally depraved. At the very least, this man is. The only way that i can see God breaking past that depravity is by His direct intervention. Any part that I might have in the process, no matter how minute, would in my opinion violate sola gratia.

 

As usual a rebuttal unencumbered by any Scriptural premise. We know by the Scriptures that men by nature hate God. And now here, in addition to your confession that those who choose to receive Christ do so because they are better people than those who do not, we have a tacit admission on your part that the advent of evil in the world is God's doing.