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Which sin will keep you out of heaven?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by SaggyWoman, Oct 17, 2008.

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  1. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    Amen Salamander. God is just. Shall not the Judge of the earth do right? Amen He will.
     
    #41 Lukasaurus, Oct 22, 2008
  2. mparkerfd20

    mparkerfd20 Member

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    Thanks for the verse. I've been looking for it as I think it's a good example of how God deals with babies.

    The rest of this diatribe against Calvinist is just garbage and doesn't warrant a response.
     
    #42 mparkerfd20, Oct 22, 2008
  3. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    But you responded? I guess it touched a nerve.
     
    #43 Lukasaurus, Oct 22, 2008
  4. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    The biggest "dagger" in Calvinism IS Eph 1:4: how was anyone ever in him before they were in him? And how is it that anyone could be holy and without blame before him if they never needed to be regenrated unto salvation?

    Seems they would have been in a perpetual state of innocense and never to have sinned. That ideal would discredit Romans 3:23.

    I really didn't know this was a calvinism discussion, but it's funny how these always seem to turn out that way.
     
    #44 Salamander, Oct 22, 2008
  5. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    Salamander,


    THere is a guy named Eddie Garrett. He is a primitive hardshell baptist. He is the most consistent calvinist I have ever read.

    Basically, he says that people can be saved whether they believe in Christ or not, if they are chosen in him. Sinners who are in him are safe, no matter how they live, or whether they even believe the gospel, or whether they even show ANY fruit or evidence of salvation.
     
    #45 Lukasaurus, Oct 22, 2008
  6. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24 Active Member

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    God not only forgives immediately...He forgets immediately.
     
    #46 I Am Blessed 24, Oct 22, 2008
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Why would you say something so vile and untrue?Of course the Lord does right.He does right ALL the time.Whatever He does is right.There is no standard that He yields to -- He Himself is the standard.The Lord does whatever pleases Him.His will controls.I wouldn't have it any other way.Are you complaining that God has His way regardless?!
     
    #47 Rippon, Oct 22, 2008
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Romans 9 tells us:

    10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."


    then it goes on to say:

    14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

    We know what Pharaoh's fate was yet we read:

    17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

    God hardens? Is that saying that He's an "evil" God who decides to condemn someone of His own will? Yes.

    If God hardens someone's heart, is he then responsible? Is that fair? Paul goes on to say:

    "19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

    What is God's purpose in this? To be glorified. We are His to do with what He wants. It's not for us to tell Him 'That's not fair' or 'Why?' God is God and it's His choice to do what He wants.

    I think this passage speaks really clearly about this. Is it fair in our eyes that God saves some and not others? No. But when you realize that ALL are damned and He saves some, does that look any better? Why does He have to save ANY of us?

    As for the question about children, once again, who am I to question God? God has His sovereign will and I will abide by that. In the meantime, I will do all I can to teach my children of the Lord God and I will go out and tell others about Him too. That is my job. The results are up to Him and I will not question him about His decision.
     
    #48 annsni, Oct 23, 2008
  9. AAA

    AAA New Member

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    None...

    NONE, because I am SECURE in JESUS Christ our saviour who bought me with HIS blood and who will lose none of HIS sheep. By His Grace I am saved and I am kept saved by the power of GOD.
     
    #49 AAA, Oct 23, 2008
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Of course it speaks really clearly (to your view)...when you pick certain verses out of their context to make them say what you want them to.

    However, when you take the passages in context is not 'about' salvation but using people to fulfill His purposes - most specifically about the literal Nation of Israel. In Romans 9 it does not state that God did not save Pharaoh because He didn't feel like it as He did with others (as you seem to would have us believe). Scripture states (in Ex.) that Pharaoh first hardened his own heart toward God and THEN God hardened it NOT so that he could not be saved because that is not the context here. He hardened Pharaohs heart so He could do all His miraculous signs He intended - otherwise Pharaoh (or anyman for that matter) would balked and begged the children of Israel (whom God came to lead out of slavery) to leave. However if we take your view of Romans 9 we must once again be left with your own question - Does God love all men?? Rom 9, 10, and 11 are all about the National Israel, with 11 bringing in the Gentiles as well. It is interesting though how the gentiles are never mentioned till 2 chapters later.

    Just read the chapter in it's context. There is nothing in the context concerning salvation at all but God using people (nations) of His choosing not because they are more worthy than another (compassion) but that He might use them to fulfill His purposes (bringing forth His word and the Messiah (Mercy)).

    If you actually research the passages about Moses and Pharaoh you will see that they are representives of those nations just as Jacob and Esua are (if you will look back at the scriptures Paul is referencing)


    But I will back off of this topic...
     
    #50 Allan, Oct 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2008
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I will agree with you somewhat here.

    I would say however that what God does is just because that is the very nature of God Himself, not simply because He is God and can do whatever He wants which make it right. The two are similar but distinctly different. So in a sense - God can not do that which is unjust but neither does just doing anything make it just because He is God and can do what He likes. The boundries of what is just and what is not are already set by His very nature and revealed to us both in Christ and His word. He can not go against His word nor His very being.
     
    #51 Allan, Oct 24, 2008
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    That is what is known as 'true' monergism.

    Salvation is completely the work of God with man having no say - literally (even belief)
     
    #52 Allan, Oct 24, 2008
  13. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    If man cannot believe, then there sure are a lot of scripture that has not business in the Bible.

    Act 8:37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Mar 16:15
    And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    Mar 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


    Now the very act of "Salvation" is of the Lord, for "Salvation" is of the Lord. But, you must believe or He will never save you.
     
    #53 mark1, Oct 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2008
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    If this is true, that Romans chapter 9 is speaking of the literal nation of Israel, then why these verses in the passage?

    6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

    25As indeed he says in Hosea,

    "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
    and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
    26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
    there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

    30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law.


    When we read the entire passage in context, we see that God chose Israel to be His people but not all of Israel is included. It is children of the promise.

    Galatians 3 reads:

    7Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

    I think Scripture is clear - that God chooses those whom He chooses. Those who come to faith are the children of promise - children of Abraham spoken of in Romans 9. Jew or Gentile because God said that not all that are Jews will belong to the chosen Israel.
     
    #54 annsni, Oct 24, 2008
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The verses you listed were the "jewish problem" in listening to Paul's message, that being if Christ were the Messiah, God's promises to Israel had failed. Paul expounds on it deeper through chapter 11. Romans 9 - 11 is not a personal soteriology lesson as calvinists claim, and much of what your theology is built on depends on this being the case. It is clear, when read in context, Romans 9 - 11 is dealing with Israel.
     
    #55 webdog, Oct 24, 2008
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    And I pointed out that "Israel" is not the nation of Israel. It's Abraham's children as spoken of in verses 6 and 7 and the Galatians passage. That would be the children of faith - in other words, believers.
     
    #56 annsni, Oct 24, 2008
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    In the context of chapters 10 and 11, that makes no sense...particularly chapter 11. We are children of faith, does God's promises to Israel (particularly the land) apply to us? You seem to hold to replacement theology.
     
    #57 webdog, Oct 24, 2008
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Don't know what "replacement theology" is (man, there are so many titles in theology, huh?) but I do think that there is national Israel and spiritual Israel. The Romans passage says that not all who are born a child of Abraham are Israel, we know that not every native Jew is a part of spiritual Israel. Those who are part of spiritual Israel are children of Abraham - by faith. That's what Romans 11 speaks of - that the Gentiles are grafted into the vine.
     
    #58 annsni, Oct 24, 2008
  19. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Yes, some of them have some really heretical beliefs.

    Adhering to that sort of belief takes all the responsibility of the sinner to COME to Jesus to never in any wise be cast out. It also would do completely away with faith in the extreme example you mentioned.

    Thank you for your kind and straightforward approach in your replies.:godisgood:
     
    #59 Salamander, Oct 24, 2008
  20. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    By that ideal you mean when I asked the Lord to save me he already had? Sounds like a "mean trick " the Lord is playing on people toying with their lives!

    If your view was true, and it's not, then Jesus never would have asked His disciples, "Will you also go away?" to which Peter replied, " Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life? " John 6:68

    Salvation in essence is totally the work of God, but man has to respond in faith believing, otherwise much of Scripture would be useless.:godisgood:
     
    #60 Salamander, Oct 24, 2008
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