WHINING???

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Eric B, Mar 26, 2004.

  1. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Boy, I see that in Jan. and Feb. I missed a lot around here. (Was too busy battling Bob Ryan over the Sabbath, and never paid any attention to the "History" forum). In both the ML King Day and Black History Month threads, a lot was said that was really off base, but eventually, people like Johnv, Mioque and even fromtheright gave good answers for some of it. (particularly all the trashing of King, and then being indignant that one would point out the sin of Columbus and the nation's founders. The one point that is ignored in all the dismissing of King as liberal, was that "MLK couldn't study at the sort of orthodox theological establishments that support your views, he was banned from attending those because he was a negro". Thanks to Mioque for pointing this out! [​IMG] . I also add to that point that his liberalism then became a handy excuse for people to trash him for theological, moral and political reasons, when they were really against him pimarily for race. So these "conservatives" were just as responsible for King's liberalism as any leftwing communist who may have influenced him. Their "gospel" of the "salvation of the chosen nation by moral cleanup and social legislation" (as Michael Horton puts it) was just as false as the liberal social gospel. So if you lash out at him like that, then lash out at your old establismnet also, and quit defending it as so pure. As I think it was also Mioque who pointed out, no racial relations would not have simply transitioned easily if King and the Civil Rights movement just let them be. There were too many hard-liners, who were not about to just give in. Could this modern retrospective rhetoric be coming from people who wanted segregation to continue? Also how people in Christian colleges cheered when he was shot and killed. You can say how he was a wicked, immoral communist heretic reprobate all you want, but is this how we are to respond regarding our enemies? Truly, the conservatives, while trying to safeguard what they thought was God's truth, had "lost their first love (Rev.2:4), and how can we vainly continue to imagine that every problem in this country is the fault of liberals, communists, blacks, non-Christians, etc? If they truly followed the Bible and cleaned up our act, then the Communists would not have been able to come in and manipulate all the social upheaval to their own schemes. We did that to ourselves. The Bible tells us "give no place to the Devil".

    With this said, There were two sets of statements said that were not really addressed, but rather glossed over as the discussion went on.

    Blacks did nothing but lay around and "whine", wile others were persecuted just as much, but "pulled themselves up" out of their predicament.

    Conservative Christian said:
    I for one am FED UP with this ignorant, misinformed Limbaughesque jargon. It's about time the card is pulled on this once and for all.
    So just WHEN did all of this laying around (i.e. being "lazy" and "not working hard") and "whining" occur? Slavery? Will you honestly say that in slavery, when we began our life here (as opposed to the Irish and Italians and most others), is when we began "laying around doing nothing"? I guess all that stuff about cotton fields and chain gangs and whips is also PC revisionist "Roots" fairy tale style mythology, right? We were just laying around living off of the backs of massa, right? And "whining"? If you accept that there was slavery, then how much "whining" could we have done when if we looked back at the master wrong, we were called "uppity" and slapped or whipped?

    Or was it after slavery, with Jim Crow and segregation? Now, blacks were able to speak out more, but it still was not "whining". They were legitimately demanding equal rights. Or was that wrong in itself? I guess the Irish and Italians didn't do the same, but only "worked" their way up? Well, what about that then? Did we begin "laying around trying to get something for nothing" then? No, most were stuck in menial labor jobs making almost nothing, and going home to horrible living conditions. It was almost slavery without the whips. Compared to those more favored in society, who did not have such bad working conditions. Who really worked "harder"? Someone in menial labor, or someone sitting behind a desk, or inheritors, traders, investors, etc.? But it's always the latter who are credited with doing all of this "work", while the former did no "work". After all, it's the living conditions that prove who does the most work, because this system was always perfectly fair, and everyone always gets exactly what they deserve, right?

    So after all of this, the entire fabric of society unraveled. Even the children of whites rebelled, and then guilt-ridden liberals (as Dr. Bob pointed out) then sudenly began promoting Civil Rights. Now, programs for blacks began, and many people tok advantage and either lived off of welfare, or got jobs they weren't really qualified for. But before you take this as proving our "laziness" after all; this was late in the game. You cannot compare us to European immigrants and say that they are "workers" and blacks are "whiners", because blacks had been here longer than they, and did work without whining all of those years, because most of the newcomers assimilated way before this, while blacks were just then finally getting full acceptance, but only by force, and with much resistance from the old order establishment. The Italians were allowed to have their Mafia, for instance, which helped build up their communities (why they are often looked on as heroes). Only recently did the authorities seriously begin cracking down on them. But all of our leadership was tagged as subversive, and "communist", (I never heard the Mob or Klan be accused of communism. No, the latter was good ole American, looking out for our best interests, along with the JBS, citizens and vigilance councils, etc!) then infiltrated, set up in traps, and the most outspoken leaders killed. (and replaced with the weak leadership we have today that does nothing but confirm what the conservatives say about us! More on them later).

    Also, when you consider all of the children who saw their parents work hard and they were still poor, then wouldn't it be understandable that when the opportunity opened up that the kids would rather not bother working? What for? Their parents did, and to what avail? So just get pregnant, and live off of welfare. You may still be poor, but at least you're not cleaning up after some old white person who only spits on you anyway. You may be able to save up and then buy trinkets and live good. The same with drug selling and rostitution. Even in the '80's (during the Reagan era of conservative backlash), as I got my first jobs, it looked like I wouldn't make it above minimum wage dept. store jobs. But I plugged on, and was able to make it, eventually, and largely from knowing someone who had gottena good job (during more liberal times!) But why would more streetwise people want to go through all of that when they see instant opportunity elsewhere?
    The mistake conservaties make is to imagine that this is some "black" thing. This is human nature. Who wouldn't want to not work, yet still live good? Even those executives who supposedly "work so hard, with 16 hour days", etc; why are they doing that? So they can have money to kick back in ease! (Even though it is never enough, and most keep pushing themselves endlessly). It was amazing to see during the 1992 election campaign some executive interviewd by the news say that if he "loses money" (because of taxes and other liberal policies), then "why should I work?" But nobody understands why then, blacks who made almost nothing wouldn't want to work

    So the reason why all this "work vs. whine" rhetoric is such an offensive slap in the face is because given what blacks have gone through in this country, they handled it quite well, and many have still come through strong.
    Today, really, how many blacks are "whining"? You have people like Sharpton and Jackson asking for reparations, or bringing up some charge during a racial incident or other political issue. But, believe it or not, they do not speak for all blacks. Just their band of followers. Here in NYC Transit, which is a typical heavily minority workplace, just about everyone I see discussing this is against reparations, and feel blacks need to do more for themselves. So then what is all of this "whining"? Could this be voices of guilt ringing in people's own heads? Just as the liberals may have acted out in guilt one way, the defensive conservatives would react to the same guilt the opposite way. By denying all the guilt from the past and lashing out and blaming blacks for everything. You want to talk about "WHINING"? Who's really doing all of the "whining" now? Who for one, is "whining" about others' supposed "whining"? Who's doing all the complaining about taxes being taken from them and given to undeserving welfare minorities, while the taxes do not even prevent them from remaining the richest nation on earth? (And the taxes given to those programs are only about 2-4%, while other programs, taxes and waste benefit government and business, yet the leaders of those are said to "deserve" it! When welfare is finally "reformed", then a lot of the complaining stops, as if that really was what was draining the economy. Yet we still have to hear these comments from them every February or election year when this topic is brought up in discussions or in politics).

    "Latin" (descended from the ancient Romans) is "white", and the Italians and some other southern Europeans had simply mixed with the Moors and others, gaining some color. But they're still considered Caucasian. The "Latins" are one of the tribes that migrated down from the Caucasus mountains, behind the tribes that formed the Greek and Persian cultures. Not only that, but on Census forms and others, "Caucasian" is defined not only as from the European side of the Mediterranean, but all of the Mideast (Including Israelis and Arabs) and even North Africa. Now, THAT is going way too far. But it seems that when we want Census numbers, we want this all-inclusive definition of Caucasian, but at other times, then we eliminate a lot of groups.

    Truth is, there is what I call a "heirarchy of whiteness", with the Nordic and Anglo stock at the top, the southern Europeans lower down, then the Jews, then most other "colored" people, with the Blacks down on the bottom. Most of the other groups with lighter skin were able to pass as white, often by changing their last names, so that is how a lot were able to "assimilate" quickly. Even some really light skinned blacks were able to do this. But not the majority, of course.
    And even with the Irish and Italians, it seems they were discriminated against for being Catholic more than for not being "white" (especially the Irish who were bona-fide white).
     
  2. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Continuing with the second point:

    Blacks sold other blacks into slavery, and they were already violent and warlike, so why was what we did so bad?

    So what is all of this? Not only are we "just as murderous", but now, we actually go beyond that, by being the ones who introduced the Europeans to slavery! I guess it served us right to get a taste of our own medicine (yet another "curse" we have brought upon the world), so what difference does it make what the Eurpoeans did?
    First, who ever said "Africa (or the native Americas, or anywhere else) was so "good", and all we did was sit around peacefully, and "whitey" came and ruined it? That's the way you think about the downfall of your civilization, so don't pin that on anyone else. —Yeah, everyone knows the African were the barbarians, and it was Christian European civilization that was the peaceful haven where all was well throughout the centuries, until this century when the liberals forced integration of black culture and immorality thus ruining our "godly heritage", as we have heard and keep hearing from many conservatives, including somewhat, in the two prior threads. So of course, how DARE anyone reverse that! But nobody ever said that about Africa. So once again, as with the "whining" charge, people accuse others of the very thing they are doing, and hear these voices coming out of their own guilt. Instead, we all have heard the worst about the continent, portrayed as some savage jungle. Even the liberal educators who are supposedly so biased toward Africa always in their documentaries and books show the people in a light that makes them look like nothing but backward jumgle bunnies, and further supports all the stereotypes (For instance, showing the women naked on top, showing some unattractive elderly tribeswoman, and never any pretty younger ladies, etc.). So the reason you have heard such an emphasis on the good of Africa and the bad of Europe, is because it was ALREADY sorely unbalanced on the side of Europe. Unless you are saying that the racist histoy that completely devalued Africans and others, and exalted Europeans was right, you cannot accuse anyone else of "revision". You have to mke sure the people giving you your history had it right themselves.

    As for Africans being the originators of slavery, I have never heard any such thing. Slavery was universal among primitive human society. And Africans taught it to the Europeans? It was the Medes, Persians, Scythians, Ionians, Dorians, Latins, Etruscans, and later the Teutons (Germanics) that came out of the Caucasus mountains to the far north and moved south in waves of conquest, where they encountered the Semites and Africans. The Arabs and Africans never went up there until the Moorish invasions, which were way later. So one group moved conquering, and the others had slaves? The point of people who condemn slavery today was not who started which, or even which was worse, but that this, as conservatives keep reminding us, was supposed to be the "Christian" civilization, but slavery as it was practiced was contradictory to that. How can we, in the very same breath as reciting the higher "morality" and "culture" of our civilization, over the supposed "barbarians"; then point to the barbarians' behavior as an excuse for our acts of barbarism? (i.e. like a guilty child pointing to another and saying "but he does it too"). We were so "Christian"; so we are held up to that standard. We complain so much about "liberals" and the younger generations with their rebellion and anti-American/Western sentiments, but we had taught them this grand view of our Christian heritage, but when they looked back at it honestly, it did not measure up to any biblical standards. "To whom much is given, much is expected", the Bible says. So the kids, confused, turned against this "heritage", and retell history from a less West-centered view. We then lash back at them and deny everything.

    While "slavery" may have been in the Bible and not condemned, as people keep saying now; what is being condemned is "manstealing" which is condemned in a list of sins in 1 Tim.1:9, 10, right along with such vices as murders of parents, whoremongers and homosexuals. (But the judgment of which age of society was "godly" was based solely on those other sins.)

    Even if you argue "the Africans did it too"; besides the fact of who were the Christians and should have known better, still, I'm sure Africans who sold others into slavery did not strip them of their identity as people. Why would they; they were the same people. They did not tell them they were cursed because of their skin or culture. It is totally different from what happened over here at the hands of another people. And even those who sold them to the Europeans probably did not know what was in store for them over here.

    Finaly, there are so many hard-lined right wingers, who are opposed to all advances blacks have made, and defensive and in denial of the past, and praise their hostory as being so good, and thus them "deserving" of all they have and more, THIS is why people keep reminding them of "what happened so long ago". Because left up to them, they would have us believe, like I said, that all was well in their civilization; all was well with slavery; Africans are no good, and "cursed", and thus deserve all the bad that happened to them; all the advances they made were undeserved; thus, they have corrupted our godly society, and that they should be re-segregated, and perhaps reenslaved! Telling us about black violence today still does not justify all of this. The patterns that began with slavery are what set all of this in motion, and it was much more intense that anything other groups went through. And yes, there may be many using this as an excuse who could do more for themselves, but their lack of excuse is no excuse for us. For one thing, it was planned in such documents as the Willie Lynch Letters to "break" the slaves by keeping them dumb, and then it would all the more prove that the people were doing it to themselves, and thus inferior and deserving of less. So after all of that, it is taking time for these effects to be completely erased, and the people who benefitted from their fathers doing this should not now be rushing us to "get over it". So yes, some may "whine" while wallowing in "destructive behavior". But this is no excuse for conservatives to deny the truth and be defensive, and try to prove that they were really innocent after all.
    Yet another ignorant statement based on partial truth, but overgeneralized into a racial stereotype.

    With all of this rhetoric, can you all understand what Kim S was complaining about, and why some still "whine" about racism?

    Pastor Larry concluded:
    The reason why many don't simply consider themselves "american" is perhaps because of all of this animosity they can still sense coming their way from conservatives, which is based on stuff that is not even true for all of us (e.g. "whining"; wanting something for nothing and thus being "undeserving"; eroding culture, etc.) It sometimes seems we are still basicallty unwanted, especially when blamed for the country's problems. All of this is why blacks still feel a need for "solidarity". Others in the previous discussion did come forth to explain why the month came about. In a ideal world, it would not be needed. While it is true that a lot of progress has been made, and it is not needed the way it one was, still, as long as things are not ideal, we cannot expect people to react as if it was ideal. Still, there are many who do voice your sentiments, and this is usually what I hear on the job.
     
  3. KimS

    KimS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow Eric. Great posts. [​IMG]

    But I'm afraid some people just won't get it and will simply attack you. That's why I never went back to the thread. Based on the response I received from my first post, it was pretty obvious of the mindset of a certain person and it was pointless to continue.

    Kim
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eric,

    If you want to be bitter about something that happened 50-150 years ago to people other than you, have at it. I chose to go on with my life and forgive the Germans for what they did to my people in the holocaust. Germany is not near as bad as they were back then. Neither is America. The whining and laziness began not during slavery or the Jim Crow Laws, but rather, lawyers and civil rights hacks like Jackson and Sharpton saw $$$$$$$$$$$$$ in their eyes and decided to manipulate an entire race of people into hating an entire other race of people and feeling sorry for themselves in the process.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. KimS

    KimS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's proof of the attitude that is prevalent today. Not 50 - 150 years ago. An entire race of people do not follow the lead of Jackson or Sharption, are not a bunch of lazy whiners, nor does this "entire race" feel sorry for itself.

    As with the Jews, many people of this "entire race" have pulled through and live successful and content lives. But we still have to deal with attitudes like this and be lumped together as one big lazy group of people. :rolleyes:

    Besides, Eric's post dealt with what was said by others with views similar to yours but who were much more harsh and critical of us. These are the attitudes we must face today and most of us are getting tired of it.

    Kim
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kim,

    You need to, IMO, spend less time dealing with their attitudes and more time improving yours as well. Bitterness leads nowhere but downhill, and it certainly has for the black people. I wonder if national statistics in test scores, college graduations, successfull jobs, teen pregnancies, violence, incarceration, single parent families would bear that out for black people. I can tell you for a fact that there is a disparity in my area where I teach in test scores between whites and blacks and it isn't because the system is trying to keep them down or isn't trying to help them. Most of them are lazy, bitter, whiners who have no role models to slap them on the back of the head and tell them to stop their whining and get to work and improve your situation. But alas, that is not something government can fix. The black families are gonna have to take that ball and run with it. Unfortunately, most black people I have met, not all mind you, but most following the demagogary of Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrakhan, and they do it to their own destruction.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. KimS

    KimS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joseph,

    My attitude is fine. It is the attitude of those who call an entire race of people lazy whiners based on a few vocal people. These are the attitudes that I have to deal with. Are you saying that I shouldn't do something to try and change those attitudes? I should remain silent and allow those who consider us lazy whiners (and far worse) to continue on? Why am I to be censored?

    I feel you must deal with your attitude. Mine is fine and so long as there are people who will continue to post such negatives views of blacks, I will be their to offer my view. If you consider that bitterness, then that is your problem. But you aren't going to stop me from offering my opinion on this board.

    And if you even bothered to view my original postings, you would be less inclined to put me down.

    Kim
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kim,

    By all means, be bitter. That is your problem, not mine. It is only hurting you and the majority of black people because you are so blinded by your bitterness you don't want to see it. If you want to change the minds of people about your race, you won't do it by whining and throwing a tantrum. You will do it by uniting the black community and being the role model for young black Americans and telling them to stop feeling sorry for themselves and work to change people's image of them. Tell them to stop following black demagogues like Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrakahn. Encourage them to work as Walter Williams does to improve life for the black person by building up the black family and working hard and returning to the faith of the Bible. If you want to see the blacks have a better life than they do now, it is not going to be because we white people change our attitudes toward you. It is because black America changes their attitudes about themselves from being constant victims to becoming successful Americans. The better life that they will build for themselves will slowly but surely change attitudes of most white Americans toward blacks and will win more respect than whining. This will unite us intead of dividing us. I pray that it will happen sooner rather than later.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. KimS

    KimS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joseph,

    I suppose we're just going to have to disagree here. You have no justification to call me bitter. And you simply refuse to understand that trying to educate others has nothing to do with bitterness. If I was bitter, I would surround myself with like minded people shouting "power to the people". But I don't. My friends are of all different nationalities and that is the way I prefer it. We all learn from each other. It's the people on this board with such negative attitudes that is very surprising to me.

    When did I whine and throw a tantrum? What on earth are you talking about? What exactly is wrong with the life many of us have now? I personally don't know any black people that follow Sharpton or Jackson. Farrakahn is more about separting and forming a new nation. I don't know any followers of him either.

    Name calling and putting me down will not get you anywhere. Unfortunately, in trying to voice my opinion, I'm come across yet another person who will refuse to listen to what I'm trying to say and will instead put me down.

    I will pray that one day you will come down from your high horse and listen to reason. As for now, I'm done with this.

    Kim
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    Bitterness and whining is just dwelling on the past. Life is not fair. Jospeh was thrown into the pit. Look at what God did with him though.

    I have never seen a whiner be productive. The Holy Spirit does not work in the past but in the present.
     
  11. KimS

    KimS
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know I said I was done but I couldn't help but take a peek. [​IMG]

    No one is being bitter or whining. The original post that Eric referred to was in regards to why Black History month got started and whether or not it was necessary. The original person to to bring up "whining and laziness" was referring a race of people in that other thread. In trying to defend my race, Joseph has decided to use that phrase to define me and has also applied it to Eric. That's wrong and out of line but there really isn't much I can do if someone is going to be intolerant.

    People, please remember that this is a History forum. If you're going to put someone down for talking about history in a history forum, then you're not making much sense.

    Kim
     
  12. Rosell

    Rosell
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    0
    If that's really what you believe and how you feel, then having a discussion is pointless. Either you are simply ignorant and uneducated, or you are hopelessly biased.
     
  13. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rosell,

    Perhaps you could point out speicfically exactly what I said that you believe is ignorant, uneducated, or hopelessly biased and explain why you think it is thus. My goodness, surely you are more enlightened, educated, and not the least bit biased. Correct? If you can't defend your position, I will have to take it you don't have anything intelligent to say and that you are making a personal attack against me.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  14. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Did I say anything bitter about 50-150 years ago? No, I'm dealing with NOW, and this is exactly what I was talking about. Someone says something on the issue, and people hear these voices in their head and lash out with the same old ignorant stereotypical jargon. Criticize it, and "why are you still whining about 50-150 years ago?" I didn't know they had computers and the internet back then, and posts could be sent into the future! :rolleyes:
    I acknowledged it began with Civil Rights and not slavery and Jim Crow, (and I do not stand behind most of what Jackson and Sharpton do. To me, if they were worth anything, they would be challenging rhetoric like this instead of giving it credence!) Once again, reacting defensively, you see what you think we all say, and don't even recognize when a statement basically agrees with your view.
    As I said in the 2nd post, this situation had been well planned by people trying to keep us down (one reason why the past is brought up, and one reason you all don't want to hear it), and it will take time for everyone to get on their feet It's amazing that you can stand and tell people how fast they should heal.
    But it's OK for you to be bitter about our "bitterness", and whine about our "whining", and spend so much time trying to change our attitude toward whites or the system, and telling us what to do; you and all the other defensive conservatives. Once again, every single thing you are criticizing us for is precisely what you are doing! What is this; only you have the right to be annoyed at what others say? We have no right to stand up for ourselves and correct misguided lies and half truths about us? No; we have to all shape up first to command change of people's views, while those other people get to sit and wait, judging our progress as too slow. Meanwhile, they don't have to correct anything about themselves. Something like this is a heated debate, so don't accuse people of being "bitter" when your tone is sharp as well.
    And you need to knock off the stereotypes, already. Yes, there are black people who are messing around and can do more for themselves, but that's people; who are fallen in sin like everyone. (once again, "idle rich" all deserve it, so noone accuses them of "laziness" or "whining" about taxes!) Every group has its cultural sins, but you wouldn't like it if people here were spouting Jewish stereotypes.


    Precisely what I was planning all day to point out next. I knew those three black leaders were going to be thrown around some more! They hear them on the news, and suddenly they imagine a whole race of people is out to crucify them. Guilt is a lot like bitterness, and hurts onees self as well.

    [ March 27, 2004, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
     
  15. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eric,

    You crack me up. [​IMG]

    Go back and read what you just wrote. I am not keeping black people down. Neither is the white man. Black Americans are keeping themselves down. I am not bitter. As a matter of fact, I would love nothing more than to see Black America do away with their victim mentality that says it's all the white man's fault, and lift themselves up to a higher level.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  16. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Did I say you keep black people down??? It's unbelievable! Still, precisely what I am saying. You need to separate what people actually say, from what your own head thinks they are saying based on some overgeneralized stereotype! Once again, as people like you complain about our "complaining", you are engaging in the same "victim" mentality you are criticizing us for; and much of that is overblown.
     
  17. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    OK. But I hear "unfair" coming a lot more from those complaining about taxes and thinking that it is actually "unfair" in blacks' favor. Even if that was true (far from it, though!), are they willing to accept that "life is unfair"? No, they demand their rights, and others have the civil right to complain about what is not right as well. Of Course, with God, we must realize that this life is passing away, and we look towards His Kingdom. But that goes for both sides as well. We must put it in persepctive. But what I am seeing here is that it is right for one side to complain about everything, all the while telling the other side they should just get over everything!
     
  18. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eric,

    Who do you believe these people are?

    (one reason why the past is brought up, and one reason you all don't want to hear it), [/QUOTE]

    Eric,

    Who are the "you all" to which you are referring? Do you believe that I am part of the group of people tring to keep you down?

    and it will take time for everyone to get on their feet It's amazing that you can stand and tell people how fast they should heal. [/QUOTE]

    Eric,

    Were you ever a slave? Were you ever not allowed to vote? What exactly do you think you need to heal from? If you focus too much on your manufactured bitterness, then you will never heal and will never be able to move on. It will eat at you for the rest of your life. And, please, don't think you or Black America are the only ones who have ever dealt with bigotry or had heinous crimes committed against you.

    But it's OK for you to be bitter about our "bitterness", and whine about our "whining", and spend so much time trying to change our attitude toward whites or the system, and telling us what to do;[/QUOTE]

    Nope. I don't want you to change your attitudes about whites. I want you to first change your attitude about yourself and stop seeing yourself as a victim. Instead, I would love for you to see yourself as an American who has more opportunities than your ancestors ever dreamed of having and take full advantage of it. In other words, stop whining and get out there and grab life by the horns. Or do you think that the majority of black Americans are doing this today? Perhaps you could show the statistics and prove me wrong? Or, is it just that you don't think I am qualified to discuss such a topic because of the color of my skin?

    you and all the other defensive conservatives.[/QUOTE]

    Eric,

    This is what it is really about. You just dislike conservatives, don't you?

    And you need to knock off the stereotypes, already. Yes, there are black people who are messing around and can do more for themselves, but that's people;[/QUOTE]

    Perhaps, you might show me the statistics that show that the majority of black America has embraced hard work, stable family life, and become successful and prove me wrong. I am offering some solutions to the problem. You seem to be wanting to stick your head in the sand and not admit there is a problem on the one hand, and then on the other hand you want to blame the problem on the "people" who are trying to keep you down. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Jews are not perfect. But, I do think there is something that Black America could learn from the way they have dealt with adversity far worse than anything black America has experienced and still gone on with their lives and become successful. We are not victims. We are overcomers of adversity. I would love to see the same thing happen for black America.

    who are fallen in sin like everyone. (once again, "idle rich" all deserve it, so noone accuses them of "laziness" or "whining" about taxes!) [/QUOTE]

    Talk about stereotypes. Perhaps you think the rich never worked a day in their lives. Of course, you discount the fact that they are the ones who provide the jobs. They are the ones who give to charity. They are the ones who give back to society instead of constantly taking. More class envy from the Democrat ideology?


    Precisely what I was planning all day to point out next. I knew those three black leaders were going to be thrown around some more! They hear them on the news, and suddenly they imagine a whole race of people is out to crucify them. Guilt is a lot like bitterness, and hurts onees self as well.
    [/QUOTE]

    Actually, Eric,

    I know some very good Black Americans who despise these liberal phonies as much as I do. For example, there is Dr. Walter E. Williams: Check this out and here for more information . But, are you going to now try to say that the majority of Black Americans don't follow after the Jackson, Sharptons, and Farrakahns of the world?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  19. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Certain groups trying to maintain the racial status quo's of the past. I had mentioned the Willie Lych Letters, which were an example of how it was planned to destroy blacks by instilling the "bad attitudes about themselves" you keep referring to; then they would "do it all to themselves" as you are also insinuating. So what I am pointing out is that it will take time for this to be undone, and yes, many individuals can do more for themselves, but taking into consideration the nature of people, they don't, and this helps keep the problem going.
    Conservatives who spout this rhetoric about the entire black race being lazy whiners. No, you may not be trying to keep us dow, but believing these lies weighs down on your God-given conscience, so when someone confronts them, you suddenly hear all of these things we have not said; you hear Sharpton, Jackson, etc. and make a blanket response that may apply to them, but not to us here. Hearing about the truth of the past destroys the myth that all was well in this society until the liberals destroyed it, and that blacks did everything to themselves. (You talk about "focusing on 50-150 years ago", but so many seem to think nothing bad happened even back then. THIS is why it is constantly brought up!)
    And here is yet another example of this projection. I do not see myself as a victim, and I did not even say I as an individual needed to heal of anything. I am making with a stable life and do not really need to do anything else right now. I am not speaking so much for myself, but you of course read into what I say the same "whining" and "victimhood" you accuse all of us of. You have been making general statements about the whole black community, so this is what I was referring to.
    We are making progress. Like I said, it takes time to undo all of that, and I didn't even say that anyone was actively "keeping us down". That is the straw man you keep erecting to keep from dealing with what we are actually saying. I do see a lot of people who are bettering themselves, and the statistics will not pick that up right away. Still, the problem is, it is still wrong for any of us to ever voice any dissatisfaction with anything, yet it is OK for you to complain we are not growing fast enough.

    Still, you seem to be in denial that all of these problems were set in motion in the past. For an example, you mention statistics. As Carl Rowan (Coming Race War, p.151), commented "How was I, or my bright Jim Crowed schoolmates in McMinnville, Tennessee, supposed to beat white kids on IQ tests when we blacks were not even allowed to to read a book in the town's only public library?" OK, that was the past. So someone like that may end up in menial jobs making nothing. He raises kids. They are not going to want to work like that for nothing, so they go into welfare or crime. They have kids. They follow suit. And so on. Who wants to hire people like that? Where do they get money for education? Conservatives certainly aren't going to want to give it to them. It is very hard to get out of that cycle. Yet you expect them to all of a sudden snap out of it, in order to prove everything here was so good all along. Some are able to find opportunity and make it. Some can't. Some are truly messing around. But it is an awful lot of people you are expecting to just get over it all of a sudden.
    Like I said, they were higher up on the scale that was set up [de-facto] in this society. They could pass as white, and while they did suffer a lot, still, they were not hated as intensly as blacks, because black by it's very color was seen as bad, and plus the whole negative connotation of backwards demon oppressed barbaric Africa, which Jews have never had. And some do still act like victims. But they tell us not to.
    Once again, everyone thinks their group is good, and we are this, and do that, etc. and that other group; look at them!
    That wasn't aimed at all rich, but rather inheritors, investors, etc. as opposed to menial labor, making nothing. And many who do find ways to get over and milk the system. They rasie prices and lower quality. Then have you blaming everything on taxes wasted on blacks. (And they give to charity mainly to get tax breaks!) You and others seem to think these people are so good, and only blacks are being bad, but my whole point there point was the same human nature that makes some blacks want to get over makes people on all levels, up to the rich (who have more strings to pull) also get over, so it is sickenong seeing blacks get singled out and tagged with this as if they were morally "inferior"(everyone else works, but they only whine).
    No, I'm just troubled any a lot of their rhetoric; especially when we get tagged as "victims", when they call themselves "angry ___[fill in the blank]" and do all the whining about what excess they think we are getting. Actually, it's many conservatives who have gone far in showing their dislike for liberals.
     
  20. Conservative Christian

    Conservative Christian
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    754
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gee, an entire thread devoted to whining. EricB proves my point with a passion! [​IMG]

    "Boy, I see that in Jan. and Feb. I missed a lot around here. (Was too busy battling Bob Ryan over the Sabbath, and never paid any attention to the "History" forum). In both the ML King Day and Black History Month threads, a lot was said that was really off base, but eventually, people like Johnv, Mioque and even fromtheright gave good answers for some of it. (particularly all the trashing of King, and then being indignant that one would point out the sin of Columbus and the nation's founders."

    You've fallen for the standard leftwing revisionist history of Columbus as blood-thirsty tyrant, which is hogwash. The hard fact is, if Columbus wouldn't have come to America, then this country would've never been Christian. Millions of people wouldn't have been able to flee the various tyrannies of Europe. Indians would still be practicing slavery and pagan sacrifices. Also, millions of Indians have become Christians over the years and thus gained eternal life---thanks to Columbus.

    "The one point that is ignored in all the dismissing of King as liberal, was that "MLK couldn't study at the sort of orthodox theological establishments that support your views, he was banned from attending those because he was a negro". Thanks to Mioque for pointing this out!"

    All you and Mioque have proven is that neither of you knows squat about the subject you so loudly expound on. First of all, you're ignorantly presuming that there were no BLACK orthodox theological establishments! There were MANY at that time, just like there were MANY black colleges at that time. MANY of them with good academic standards. King didn't have to go to a "white" theological establishment to get a proper religious education! Yet another "blame whitey" excuse is REJECTED!

    "I also add to that point that his liberalism then became a handy excuse for people to trash him for theological, moral and political reasons, when they were really against him pimarily for race. So these "conservatives" were just as responsible for King's liberalism as any leftwing communist who may have influenced him."

    Talk about the pot calling the kettle BLACK! You don't take a backseat to anybody when it comes to espousing bigoted remarks. How do you know they were "really against him primarily for race"?! The truth is, you CAN'T possibly know. Raw, naked prejudice on YOUR part!

    As usual, you make excuses and try to pass the buck by blaming "whitey conservatives" for King's "leftwing communist" sympathies! Funny, but if what you're saying is true, then ALL black leaders in American history should've been cavorting with communists! But they weren't, so another of your poorly thought out excuses bites the dust!

    MANY black leaders throughout history and right up until today, have been strong advocates of the free enterprise system. So there was never any "necessity" to be collaborating with communists. Your web of excuses is quickly unraveling.


    "Their "gospel" of the "salvation of the chosen nation by moral cleanup and social legislation" (as Michael Horton puts it) was just as false as the liberal social gospel. So if you lash out at him like that, then lash out at your old establismnet also, and quit defending it as so pure."

    Again you engage in sheer prejudice, by blaming the wrong people! Conservatives of that era didn't support social legislation for "moral cleanup"! They were strict free-marketeers who lived by the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" method. They rejected big government solutions to social problems!

    The real culprits you should be blaming are religious LIBERALS, black and white, who were pushing their liberal social gospel through both the churches and big government--just like they still do today!

    Boy, if somebody falsely blamed Blacks for anything, you'd be whining louder than anybody. But you sure don't mind falsely blaming conservatives for the excesses and failures of the liberal social gospel of the 19th and 20th centuries, which had permeated both government and the churches!

    Michael Horton is obviously clueless, since he's completely ignorant of the hard fact that the "gospel of the "salvation of the chosen nation by moral cleanup and social legislation" WAS and IS part of the liberal social gospel! Bottom line--liberal social solutions have been morally and intellectually bankrupt from the get-go!
     

Share This Page

Loading...