Who Appears at the Great White Throne?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by James_Newman, Feb 23, 2007.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    I think I have heard it about a hundred times:

    "No Christian will appear at the great white throne, thats for unbelievers"

    So lets examine this doctrine with the light of scripture.

    Revelation 20:11-13
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    First thing to note, the dead are being raised out of the sea, out of death and hell, to stand before the throne. This is a resurrection for judgment. Everyone who is dead is raised up to be judged according to their works. So who is it that is dead? It is the 'rest of the dead' who do not have a part in the first resurrection:
    Revelation 20:4-6
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Who is it that has a part in the first resurrection? From this passage alone, it seems that this is a very limited scope of people. We have martyrs, those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and the word of God. It says those folks have a part in the first resurrection and live and reign with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are finished, which is the 'second' resurrection at the judgment seat of Christ. So wouldn't this mean that not all Christians are going to have part in the first resurrection, unless they met certain criteria, such as martyrdom as we see in verse 4? I personally don't know anyone who has been martyred for the cause of Christ or the word of God.
     
    #1 James_Newman, Feb 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2007
  2. BobRyan

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    At this point I agree with JN 100%.

    The FIRST Resurrection is the Resurrection of the righteous - the 2nd is the resurrection of the "rest of the dead" and the 1000 years are real.

    A real 1000 years.
    A real "FIRST" resurrection that is "really first"
    And a real Second Resurrection that is really second.

    And all those judged in the 2nd resurrection are cast into the lake of fire.

    So in Rev 19 we see the appearing of Christ - and we see the FIRST resurrection taking place at that time.

    In 1Thess 4 we see the same thing - Christ appears and the dead in Christ "rise FIRST".

    All others are raised at the 2nd resurrection.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    The first resurrection includes those "That did not worship the beast" and also those who were beheaded for their faith.

    But if you notice in Rev 13 - the beast rising out of the sea is a "composit" of all 4 beasts in Dan 7. Which means the represent all major world empires of man - false religous systems of men bound up in those empires - to whom the saints do not yield spiritual allegiance in the time of Daniel or to this very day.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. James_Newman

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    Let us not get sidetracked.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    The point is that "Those who did not worship the beast" includes the saints of all ages in Rev 20. They are raised "First". Those goes to the point.
     
  6. James_Newman

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    I would have to argue that that phrase is specifically refering to tribulation saints, there was no mark to recieve prior to the beast causing all to receive it. But certainly I believe there are others that will be reigning with Christ during the millennium. I just don't see where it says all Christians, and that only unbelievers will be at the great white throne. That would be at odds with what Christ Himself said.

    John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    The saints that died and those alive at the 1Thess 4 and Rev 20 point in time when "Christ appears" and the dead in Christ are raised include saints that DID resist and were slain as well as those who lived their lives in devotion to God.

    The beast of Rev 13 is a composit beast and that is the SAME chapter that speaks of the mark of the beast. The composit is of all the beasts seen in Dan 7.

    The FIRST resurrection of Rev 20 is of the "Holy and Blessed" vs 5 and is the same as is seen by Paul where "the Dead in Christ rise FIRST".

    Bu the REST of the dead - that means only the wicked since ALL of the sainst are dealt with at the FIRST resurrection which is at the coming of Christ so that takes care of both LIVING and dead saints -- are just the wicked.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. James_Newman

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    I don't think you can show all believers living in devotion to God. That is what we are talking about. The rest of the dead are those who are not worthy of reigning in the kingdom. The last day, when we are assured to be raised up, is the great white throne.
     
  9. James_Newman

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    So no one has any thoughts as to whether or not every Christian can be shown to take part in the first resurrection, or whether some believers will have to wait until the last day to be raised up?
     
  10. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 would clearly show every believer to be included in the first resurrection.


    The passage above clearly shows every believer will be in that first resurrection. First those who sleep, then the living.
     
  11. James_Newman

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    Every believer will be appearing at the judgment seat of Christ. Pauls words in the above passage were intended to console those who were concerned that those who had died would miss out in the kingdom of God. Obviously physical death is not a hindrance, as God will raise us up. But you can't take that to be a blanket statement that everyone will be reigning with Christ in the millennium, when you consider it in the light of other verses that clearly show there are conditions for inheritting the kingdom.

    Galatians 5:19-21
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    What would you do with a verse like this?
    1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    That says every man, so does that mean that the universalists are right?
     
  12. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    This is speaking of every man who is Christ's. Many claim to be of the Body but are not.
     
  13. James_Newman

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    Is that really the only answer? Many people think they are saved but they really aren't? How can you be sure that you are? Perhaps being 'in Christ' is not the same thing as being saved by faith alone.

    1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    Why do we have to conflate this with this

    John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Belief is belief, keeping commandments is keeping commandments. Where is being 'in Christ' (by keeping commandments) a requirement for being raised up on the last day (by believing)?
     
  14. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name
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    He that is the Lord's hears His voice and follows Him. So being saved and keeping His commandments go hand in hand.

    If one is saved, one is going to love the Lord. If one loves the Lord, one will keep His commandments.
     
  15. DQuixote

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    What that clearly shows is that this references those who have not received Christ as Savior and Lord. They are, therefore, still walking in utter unrighteousness. Those who have received Christ have had HIS righteousness imparted to them. Their sins have been forgiven and forgotten. Read Gal 5:16-18! Jerking the quoted passage out of the context of all that is written about salvation for those who believe is deplorable.

    1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    .........and dat's duh name-uh dat tun.



    :type: <-------rightly dividing the Word.
     
    #15 DQuixote, Feb 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2007
  16. James_Newman

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    All of them, automatically?

    Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

    Do you believe that you have kept this commandment since you have been saved? I can't honestly say that I always love my neighbor as myself. I love myself way too much. It is absurd to say that saved people don't sin, saved people sin all the time. Why do we have to exhort one another daily? Why does Paul warn us
    1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
    if we could not fall?
     
  17. DHK

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    That is right. It will happen 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgement, and immediately after the first resurrection or the rapture. Having thus been judged, no believer will appear at the Great White Throne Judgement. It will not be necessary, nor is there a thread of evidence to show that would be the case.
    There are two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust;
    one to eternal life; and the other to eternal damnation.
    one to the JSOC; and the other to the GWT.
    Two resurrections; both separated by a thosand years.
    Blessed is he who has part in the first resurrection.
     
  18. James_Newman

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    But being raised to appear at the judgment seat of Christ is not 'having part in the first resurrection.' That refers to reigning with Christ for a thousand years. Now you admit that the judgment seat of Christ is for believers only and is a thousand years before the GWT judgment. So what is this:

    Matthew 25:19-30
    19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strewed:
    27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Conventional wisdom says this third 'servant' is not saved. Why is he being judged with the faithful servants?
     
  19. Agnus_Dei

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    I agree, but I once had a fellow tell me that it was possible to live a sinless life. His reasoning was that Christ told the woman at the well to ‘go and sin no more’. He took the passage that it was possible to sin no more or else Christ wouldn’t have told her to go and sin no more, if it wasn’t possible.

    I debated him until I was blue, but he was convinced that his interpretation was correct. I really couldn’t fault him, he was a sola scripturist.
     
  20. DHK

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    Your wisdom is not always conventional.
    In order to come to the wedding one had to have a "wedding garment," and if too poor it was provided for him by the master of the wedding. The fact that he didn't have it on is evidence that he deliberately rejected this gift of a wedding garment. This is the feast of a King. It is for the bride and the bridegroom. It is a wedding feast. It has nothing to do with the Kingdom, but takes place well before that. The wedding garment is symbolic of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, without which no one will enter into heaven and without which no one may be a part of the bride, Christ himself being the bridegroom. We, the bride, will take part of the wedding feast in Heaven. This takes place all before the Kingdom. Though there be time on earth, there is no time in heaven, or at least it is relative. This parable emphasizes the necessity of having the righteousness of Jesus Christ in order to be saved, or a part of the bride, and nothing more. Don't read more into the parable than Jesus is trying to teach. The parable only illustrates doctrine that is already taught. To teach doctrine out of a parable is to pervert the Word of God.
     

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