Who are the All Christ shall draw to Him ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by savedbymercy, Aug 12, 2015.

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  1. savedbymercy

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    Jn 12:32

    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Who are the All Christ shall draw to Him ? Jesus makes a promise, not a offer, that if a certain condition occurs a certain effect will take place !

    Now what is the Promised Effect here ? What is the condition stated for that effect to occur ? So then who are the All ? Its as simple as 2+2 , the All here are the ones drawn to Christ !

    If Christ was lifted up for anyone, the evidence of that will be that that one shall be drawn to Christ, and will/shall follow Him !

    The word draw here is the key, its the greek word helkó and means:

    I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe

    properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

    metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel:

    It also means in this scripture and Jn 6:44 :

    I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

    Christ is promising to spiritually persuade them to follow Him. Also the word persuade has to do with Faith and or Believing, for instance, the common word for Faith as in Eph 2:8 is the greek word pistis and it means:

    pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

    And again the word draw helkó means:

    I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe

    That coincides with the idea of :

    I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win or persuade over to myself the hearts of all

    Jesus is promising to win over to Faith all for whom He is Lifted up for !
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    Who are the All Christ shall draw to Him ?2

    The word draw helkó also means to lead as in a Shepherd shall lead His Flock Isa 40:11

    11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

    The word lead nahal means:

    to lead or guide to a watering place, bring to a place of rest, refresh

    Remember the Promise Jesus makes to them that come to Him Matt 11:28

    28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    And thats what drawing does, it causes them to come unto Him, and the drawing is the result of having been Lifted up on the Cross Jn 12:32

    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    Its the same as when Jesus said of His Sheep in Jn 10:3

    3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    The word Leadeth here exagó means to lead out, to lead forth or to bring forth , fetch out,

    to lead by laying hold of, and in this way to bring to the point of destination

    Jesus actually lays hold of His Lost Sheep in finding them, its like in the parable Lk 15:4-5

    4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

    Notice what He does when He finds it, He layeth it on His shoulders rejoicing, now in order to do that, He must lay hold of it !

    Its also like when Paul said of Christ to him Phil 3:12

    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

    That word apprehended katalambanó means:

    to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to:

    properly, take hold of exactly, with decisive initiative (eager self-interest); to grasp something in a forceful (firm) manner; (figuratively) to apprehend (comprehend), "making it one's own."

    And this drawing by Christ Jn 12:32 corresponds with His bringing us to God 1 Pet 3:18

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh or being lifted up, but quickened by the Spirit:

    He died so that He might bring us to God !

    All this denotes being cause to come, to approach God as when the Psalmest wrote Ps 65:4

    4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

    This causing is the effect of Christ's drawing ! Thats who the All are in Jn 12:32, all that come to God in Christ as a result of Christ being lifted up for them on the Cross !
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Believers are unto God through Christ !

    1 Cor 8:6

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Paul gives some profound truth here unto us [who believe] writing that there is but One God, the Father of whom are all things, that word OF is the greek prep ek denoting He is the First Cause of source of all things, and we [believers] in Him or unto Him, for the word in is the prep eis which means:

    into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.

    So we believers are for or unto Him, which is a Truth oft neglected or even unknown, however Believers are for or unto God the Father by Christ, for they had been by Him redeemed unto God by His Blood Rev 5:9

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God or God-Ward by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    And or also they come to God by Him Heb 7:25

    25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    There coming to God here is the effect of Christ's Death and intercession for them, so they are coming by Him !

    So thats how we believers are for or unto Him, and then thers the One Lord Jesus Christ in 1 Cor 8:6, by or through whom are all things, which speaks of Him as Mediator as does Col 1:16

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Jn 1:3

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    All things the Father is the First Cause and Source of came into being by the Medium of the Lord Jesus Christ ,

    It denotes that Christ is the instrumental and efficient cause, and we believers are by/dia Him, we became believers in God by Him,

    Confirmed by Peter here 1 Pet 1:21

    Who by him[Christ] do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Its because of Christ we [believers] do believe in God !
     
  4. wpe3bql

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    Is there a definite way that a person can know whether or not he is being drawn by Christ, or is he being drawn by some emotional response of a preacher or an evangelist or by some other human?

    I've attended some meetings in which I've seen a preacher, or an evangelist, or some other human, tried his very best to "Come forward to the altar....Don't resist the Holy Spirit's pleading for your soul....Don't yield to Satan's whispering that you're okay just the way you are, so stay in your seat rather than coming forward....If you don't come forward now, you just might sin away your day of grace....Don't let the person sitting next to you keep you from coming forward during this altar call," etc.

    To me, when I hear someone say things like the above statements, I cringe!

    IMHO, a person who responds to such worked-up statements as these probably isn't being drawn by Christ at all!

    A person may go forward, but I wonder if he's going forward simply because of something the speaker himself struck a chord within that person's emotional makeup rather than being led by the drawing power of Christ.

    Occasionally, I've felt a kind of twinge within myself when an evangelist relates a story or two within his message, but that's all it was--an emotional response from within rather than Christ Himself drawing me to do something.

    So, do you know of any fool-proof procedure whereby a person can immediately determine for sure whether or not he's being drawn by Christ or merely responding to some emotionally-based pitch by some evangelist/preacher/other human being?
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    The Redeemed are taught of God !

    Isa 48:17

    17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

    God does for the redeem what The Psalmist says here with the same word Ps 51:13

    Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

    Now these are all the ones that God is their redeemed through the Lord Jesus Christ, for He is the One and Only Kinsmen Redeemer for the People of God, and they are Redeemed by His Blood/Death, those God so loves He redeems Isa 63:9

    9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

    And so Christ Loved His Church and Redeems it/them Eph 5:25

    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    Titus 2:14

    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    And to them He Loved and Redeemed He must teach them to profit, and that first and foremost in the things of God !

    That word profit means to gain benefit from, hence those whom Christ redeems with His Blood shall gain a benefit from it !

    The word teach is the same word the writer uses in Isa 54:13

    13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

    Which of course is alluded to here by Jesus Jn 6:45

    It is written in the prophets[Isa 54:13], And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    The word taught in both places denotes to be instructed, to be made to learn, and so what this promises is that all the redeemed children of God shall receive a spiritual education for their profit, much in line with what the writer of Hebrews writes Heb 12:5-11

    The word chastening thoughout this passage in Heb 12 means:

    I.to train children

    A.to be instructed or taught or learn


    B.to cause one to learn

    If God Loved us, He redeemed us through Christ and then teaches and gives us a spiritual education for our profit and benefit and advantage !
     
  6. savedbymercy

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    Did you read the OP and second posts ? Please review back to me the points I made to see if you understood them, though you may not agree with ! Thanks !
     
  7. wpe3bql

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    Bro. Saved By Mercy--

    I've examined the posts you asked me to do.

    I still don't see any particular statement(s) that deal with my inquiries in my earlier post.

    Granted, you seem to be more focused on how Christ originally draws a person to the point where that person goes on the receive Him as his Personal Savior.

    My question dealt with a particular aspect of that "drawing" that you didn't exactly emphasize, namely how precisely can a person know for sure that sometime after he or she has already been redeemed by Christ that a supposed "urging" for him or her to do (or not to do) something that may not really be according to His will for that person to either do or not to do.

    IOW, how at that precise moment of "urging" can distinguish who or what is the source of that "calling"?

    For example, Paul seemed to want to re-visit some of the churches that he & his associates had help found in the central & eastern areas of Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey) & subsequently go even further east to his home church at Antioch. But God didn't want him to travel eastward--He wanted him to travel westward to Macedonia & eventually to even further western areas of the European continent.

    Paul's original desire may have seemed to him to be what he assumed was God's will for him at that time, but, as it turned out, God's will for Paul was basically exactly the opposite of what Paul thought it was.

    I realize that back in the 1st century NT era, it seems that God oftentimes directed His people in somewhat different ways than He does today.
    OTOH, He still "draws" people today, not only to being saved, but also subsequently to serve Him after that person is saved.

    That's the crux of my question(s). Just how exactly can a person precisely know at the first time he/she "feels" Christ is perhaps calling him/her either to do something or not do something rather than merely a human-based emotional "drawing" that in reality may be far different than what God actually wants that person to either do or not do whatever he/she "feels" that Christ may be "drawing" then to either do or not do for His honor & glory.

    That's what I was asking in my original post.

    Hopefully I've made myself a little clearer this time--quite often some of my posts leave people more perplexed than I want them to be--I suppose that nearing age 70 has something to do with that.

    Shalom.
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    wpe3bql

    Great, now explain back to me the points I made in them to see if you understood them, this is vital if you care to debate them !
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    The Redeemed are taught of God ! 2

    Note : Being Taught of God is a Blessing of Redemption, of the Death of Christ, one cannot be the object of Gods Love and Christ's death without being taught of God, it just cant happen ! Now part of that Training and Education comes from the Word of Truth, He uses skilled men of God, Gospel Preachers He has qualified to being about instructive teaching by the power of the Spirit 2 Tim 3:16

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Now that word instruction is the same word chastening here Heb 12:5

    And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

    God will teach His redeemed by making His Truth profitable for them, to do them good, they shall be taught right doctrine by them Deut 32:2

    2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

    Also know that when God says He shall teach something, that denotes them He teaches shall receive it, shall learn from it, they shall be taught of God , resulting in that they Learned what God intended to teach, so says Jesus Jn 6:45

    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    That word Learned manthanō means the learning of key facts

    properly, learning key facts; gaining "fact-knowledge as someone learns from experience, often with the implication of reflection – 'come to realize' "

    Hence they become Spiritually educated resulting in coming to Faith in Christ, this is a Promise to the redeemed Children Isa 54:13;48:17 !
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    This issue is carefully and fully answered by Christ prior to John 12 in John 6. There is a contextual identifying mark that restricts this to "all" that were given to Christ by the Father before Christ came into the world (Jn. 6:38-39b).

    That contextual identifying marker is the phrase "but should raise it up again at the last day" - Jn 6:39.

    This contextual idenitfying marker is first used in John 6:39 by Christ as the characteristic truth "OF ALL" the Father gave to the Son to save so that none are lost and he gave them to the Son prior to the Son coming to earth (Jn. 6:38-39b).

    They are explicitly identified as all who do hear and believe - Jn. 6:40 as these have the same contextual identifying marker - "and I will raise him up at the last day." - v. 40b

    They are explicitly identified as all who are drawn to Christ by the Father - Jn. 6:44 as these have the same contextual identifying marker - "and I will raise him up at the last day." - Jn. 6:44b

    They are explicitly identified as all who partake of Christ by faith or who metaphorically drink and partake of his flesh - "and I will raise him up at the last day." - Jn. 6:54

    They are NOT all who profess Christ as Savior (Jn. 6:64-65) because the Father does not draw them, because he never gave such to the Son, and such never really believed in him.

    They are NOT just Jews but Gentiles (Jn. 12:20) and therefore "of all" are inclusive of "all" races, genders and social classes of mankind (Jn. 12:32).

    The contextual identifying marker is given to identify "ALL" whom the Father gave to the Son BEFORE the Son came into the world (Jn. 6:38-39a). These are "ALL" who see and believe (Jn. 6:40). These are "ALL" those whom the Father draws (Jn. 6:44b). These are "ALL" who actually partake of him by faith (Jn. 6:54). These are from "ALL" nations (Jn. 12:20,32) and not merely the Jews.
     
  11. wpe3bql

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    I don't really desire to debate you--or anyone else--on this issue, at least not in the sense of the word "debate" as it's normally expressed in this forum.

    Rather, I'm only asking for your ideas about the question(s) I asked in my original post on this thread.

    IOW, I'm primarily asking questions rather than seeking to debate you because until I read your ideas about my questions, I have no real reason(s) to take any issues [Which I probably won't do anyway.] with your position(s) since, right now, I don't even know what your position(s) are until you tell me what they are.

    I hope this clarifies what I'm asking you, Bro. SBM. :wavey:
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    Thanks for that, so did you understand my points made?
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    Maybe this is not the thread for you then, so take care!
     
  14. wpe3bql

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    Bro. SBM,

    As you said, maybe this thread isn't the one for me because I don't seem to be getting the precise answers to the specific question(s) I posed in my original post on this thread.

    Your responses still appear to be dealing with the aspect of who does respond to God's calling a person to receive Christ as his personal Savior & on what basis he responds (or doesn't respond). Ephesians 2:1-9 and Titus 3:4-7 clearly tell us that it's God Himself who takes the initiative in drawing a person to receive Jesus as his personal Savior, not the other way around.

    Having said all this, I suppose it's best that I start my own thread in a different forum than this one because I have no desire to derail this one--which IMHO seems to be headed into the classic "C vs. A" debate on how one defines "all" in a particular context--an issue in which I have little desire to participate.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    Yes, there is. 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 informs Christians they can know of their election. The word of God comes differently to the elect than the non-elect, it comes to them in transforming power, in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance. In other words their life is totally transformed in character and conduct like those who shared the gospel with you (1 Thes. 1:5b-8). Repentance describes this transformation. Repentance is not pennance or something you do in order to satisfy God or appease God. Repentance is not mere admission you are a sinner. Repentance is the CHANGE OF MIND, AFFECTIONS AND WILL so that you are no longer in love with darkness but in love with light (Jn. 3:19-20). You are no longer in mental unbelief about the truth of the gospel but in belief. You are no longer inclined to evil but inclined to good (Rom. 7:18). Moreover, you don't need to sign a profession card or mark date to provide assurance of salvation but there exists within you a witness of the Spirit so that you have "much assurance" (1 Thes. 1:5). Repentance is the experience of the person being saved while regeneration is the cause or God providing a "new" heart - a heart that is CHANGED.

    Excellent observation. This is a man trying to usurp the Person and work of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Aug 15, 2015
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  16. The Biblicist

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    Unless, I have misunderstood you, I think you are confusing effects with cause. Drawing is the cause not the effect in regard to coming to Christ, without drawing "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME" and therefore drawing is the CAUSE for any man coming to Christ - period. If I have misunderstood you then please clarify between cause and effect in regard to drawing and coming to Christ.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Aug 15, 2015
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  17. savedbymercy

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    If you don't understand my points made then there's nothing to discuss! Also understanding them and agreeing with them are two different things!
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    In other words, if one cannot understand what you are saying it is the reader's fault because you are incapable of being unclear or above explaining yourself? If that is the case then why are you on this forum? It is a debate and discussion forum. Are you simply too high and good for the rest of us?

    Drawing is the explicit and stated CAUSE for coming to Christ by faith in Jn. 6:44 because Jesus explicitly states "NO MAN CAN COME" apart from drawing. I agree that Christ is the author of faith and the finisher and that drawing is the Father's work of bringing to faith "of all" whom he gives to Christ.
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Aug 15, 2015
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  19. savedbymercy

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    If you don't understand then you just don't understand, it is over your head! I have took time to explain while making the points to begin with!
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    So where can we offer worship to you as the one above all who incapable of being misunderstood and that further explanation is beneath such a lofty and highly exalted one?

    You are above answering the simple and clear questions of the other poster and now you are above clarifying whether you are making drawing the cause of coming. In other words, you refuse to discuss or debate but you are here simply to be revered?
     
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