Who Did Jesus Come To Save?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 19, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Jesus said,

    "If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

    Irrefutable syllogism:

    a. Jesus came to save the world.

    b. Some of the world will not believe on Him - which is to say they will reject Him - and therefore will not be saved.

    c. Ergo, some who Jesus came to save will not be saved and the whole idea that Jesus came to save a pre-selected group of people falls flat on it's face.

    John said,

    "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

    Again, we have a clear statement that Jesus' came to some people who did not receive Him. But Calvinism tells us He only came to save those who would actually receive Him.

    So much for Calvinism.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Pastor_Bob

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    "Who Did Jesus Come To Save?"

    Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (KJV)

    Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. (KJV)


    Jesus' sacrifice was not only sufficient for all, but intended for all. If a person rejects Jesus, then the atonement is not applied to that person and he will go to hell. That is his fault and not a result of limited atonement.
     
  3. timothy 1769

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    I've come to agree with both of you. But there is a lot of apparent support for the idea of God doing the choosing, not man. How do you explain verses such as this?

    Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    :confused:
     
  4. Pastor_Bob

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    "It is impossible for us to fully understand the relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will. Only God truly knows how the two work together. Scripture is clear that God knows who will be saved (Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2). Ephesians 1:4 tells us that God chose us “before the foundation of the world”. The Bible repeatedly describes believers as the “chosen” (Rom 8:33; 11:5; Eph 1:11; Col 3:12; 1Thess 1:4; 1Peter 1:2; 2:9) and the elect (Matt 24:22,31; Mark 13:20,27; Rom 11:7; 1Tim 5:21; 2Tim 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1Peter 1:1).

    The fact that believers are predestined (Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:5,11) and elected (Rom 9:11; 11:28; 2Peter 1:10) for salvation is plainly clear. The Bible also says that we have the free will choice – all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved (John 3:16; Rom 10:9-10). God knows who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. How these two facts work together is impossible for a finite mind to comprehend (Rom 11:33-36). Our responsibility is to take the Gospel to the whole world (Matt 28:18-20; Acts 1:8). We should leave the foreknowledge, election, and predestination part up to God and simply be obedient in sharing the Gospel."
    Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer.
     
  5. RaptureReady

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    Reading post by men who BELIEVE the Bible makes it worth reading. My two cents is that Romans 8 is talking to the believer. We are predestinated in Christ to be conformed as his image. If you are not saved, you are not predestinated in Christ. Does this make sense Bible BELIEVERS?
     
  6. Me2

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    I agree that God came to save the lost..which is all men.

    is there a plan. sure. a plan designed before anything was created.

    that man would be placed in seperation of God and with Gods supply. man would work his way into an image designed for him to become.

    we examine the totality of the image in the man Jesus Christ. the image intended from genesis.

    yet this image was not introduced fully to the jews, but to the gentiles 4000 years into Gods creative process. Can man even realize the totality of this image in this age? what is the totality of a "son of God". is it raising the dead, healing the sick, feeding the multitudes as Jesus displayed.

    sure is!

    Do we see The "sons of God" being manifested today?
    being introduced before our eyes? no. they are still in training. this is their period of being taught. and what of their purpose? to usher into being..the kingdom of God to all men.

    whether in this age, or the next.. this manifestation will occur. thats the plan.

    but we also see many discrepencies of Gods calling towards mankind. Is he calling all today?

    No this is the time in which he is assembling the "sons of God". the rest is in the next Great harvest.

    will God leave any behind? forsaking them? will he forget anyone?

    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

    this is not a temporary message to mankind, but an ETERNAL ABSOLUTE MESSAGE. However long its needed to be proclaimed.
    I would assume until all men have been drawn. thats excluding none. not one woman child or man. no ignorant or rebellious. none will be overlooked whether in 4000bc or yesterday or the last human being is aborted or dies.

    and thats what witnesses and messengers are all about. the "sons of God".
    It is their responsibility to proclaim this truth to these people that God INTENTIONALLY DID NOT TELL IN THEIR LIVES.or became rebellious and denied Gods actual Love and infinite forgiveness for them.

    thats the "sons of Gods" inheritance.
    the glory. The Joy. the riches of Proclaiming the resurrection of Christ For All Men. To All Men.
    Gods Free Gift of Mercy to his creation.

    But we see the conflict between believers today. and God explicitely expresses Conflict will occur within his family against him in his Bible.

    yet did you ever conclude that those in conflict are in conflict with the truth "within themselves".

    they are saved. they contain the seed of God within them, yet their desires are confused with their imaginations.

    or the sinner and their victims....

    "God is Going To Save that person that hurt Me!!!"
    "that person who stole my wife. or killed my child."

    Yep. and dont be too upset. You might be the person chosen to tell them the good news that their sins are forgiven.

    there are plans within plans here. If you were to see the nature of God and his Goal. It would be easy to reverse engineer his methods.

    some saved today..helping to save "all" tomorrow, or even in the ages to Come.

    Do I have Proof In My hand of these future occurances?.

    Only faith in my heart. Its the nature of God that expresses his infinite love. His infinite Mercy. and none can be excluded.

    no matter how man will twist the idea.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Me2
     
  7. Elk

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    I love this illustration...
    It falls so short of our all knowing God, but just imagine drawing a great big line on a table to represent the span of time on this earth.
    Then somewhere along this line put a tiny spot where you and I are in this current time. From where you are standing pretend that that is God looking down at all of time. HE sees it all and knows exactly how it will all end. HE sees the beginning, middle, ending.
    God did not make robots, but gave everyone free will. Yet, God knows it all, and what we will do, from beginning to end. HE can see it all and control it all.
    So, the concept of predestination cannot be taken lightly, yet to nullify the freedom that God gave us is also very wrong and untrue.
    For God loves us all and HE is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
     
  8. Daniel David

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    As a Bible believer, it makes no sense whatsoever.

    The same group of people that are glorified, were called. The same group of people that were called, were glorified.

    Since we know many will go to eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire, not all will be glorified. Therefore, God DOES NOT CALL ALL PEOPLE THE SAME WAY.
     
  9. Daniel David

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    Mark, you don't honestly think that destroys the basis of calvinism do you?

    I have not made up my mind on the atonement. I have done extensive research on both sides and see that each side has alot of truth in it.

    Right now, this is how I see the Scripture:

    1. God desires the salvation of all men and doesn't enjoy giving out punishment to the wicked.

    2. The substitution of Christ only has effect on those who believe.

    3. The death of Christ satisfied the wrath of God by paying the sin debt owed by man.

    Let me point out that calvinists and arminians each limit the atonement.

    The calvinist says the bridge goes across the river for only a few.
    The arminian says the bridge goes halfway across the river for every single person. They have to swim the rest of the way.
     
  10. Me2

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    Are these scriptures speaking to a select group of believers.

    Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
    Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    these scriptures speak to all "called" of God.

    yet today we see a lot of failing and misguided brothers and sisters. some backslidden and fallen from grace.
    but the scriptures do speak of POSITIONAL JUSTIFICATION AND POSITIONAL GLORIFICATION.

    Yet It stops short of mentioning "Sanctification".
    for sanctification is the day by day work of God in the believers life to form him into a POTENTIAL "Son of God".
    I've never heard of positional sanctification.

    we all start down that process yet this is where the seperation of obedient and disobedient believers takes place. those who "choose" to live by law or grace.

    although the disobedient are still "justified and glorified Positionally".

    interestingly the exclusion of sanctification draws me closer to understanding why. because it points to what sanctification is not.

    I like to interject the parable:
    Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

    many justified, few sanctified

    two groups within the same called family conflicting with each other, yet both groups are saved. (justified and glorified)
    another reference would elude to vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, yet "all" are saved. (justified and glorified)

    Me2
     
  11. Baptist Believer

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    The Bible teaches that the bridge goes all the way across the river, but many people ignore the voice of the Spirit and refuse to cross.
     
  12. Daniel David

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    I didn't know you were a calvinist.
     
  13. RaptureReady

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    Ah, but he does. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not one, two or three, but THE WAY.
     
  14. Daniel David

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    Ah, but he does. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not one, two or three, but THE WAY. </font>[/QUOTE]Homebound, you are talking about something totally different. Please do not hijack this thread. If you need to, please start a new thread.

    Jesus is the only WAY to the father. None will be saved through any other means.

    WAY No. 1 - God calls all people to repent
    WAY No. 2 - God calls a person to believe the gospel when they are confronted by it

    Again,

    WAY No. 1 - General
    WAY No. 2 - Specific

    Do you understand what I said now?

    Homebound, I see alot of your anti-calvinist posts as merely misinformed. Usually, when a preacher gets hot and heavy and starts spittin' is when the ignorant calvinist blasts start. I hope you are just uninformed and not getting your information from that kind of preacher.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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    I didn't know you were a calvinist. </font>[/QUOTE]I have quite a bit of respect for Calvinism and much of its insight into scripture. However, there are a few places where I must disagree. :D
     
  16. RaptureReady

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    Ah, but he does. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not one, two or three, but THE WAY. </font>[/QUOTE]Homebound, you are talking about something totally different. Please do not hijack this thread. If you need to, please start a new thread.

    Jesus is the only WAY to the father. None will be saved through any other means.

    WAY No. 1 - God calls all people to repent
    WAY No. 2 - God calls a person to believe the gospel when they are confronted by it

    Again,

    WAY No. 1 - General
    WAY No. 2 - Specific

    Do you understand what I said now?

    Homebound, I see alot of your anti-calvinist posts as merely misinformed. Usually, when a preacher gets hot and heavy and starts spittin' is when the ignorant calvinist blasts start. I hope you are just uninformed and not getting your information from that kind of preacher.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sure, God uses different people, things, situations, etc.. for each person, but the Gospel message is/should be the same, right.?
     
  17. Daniel David

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    Okay, there is a breakdown on either my explanation or your understanding. It is probably me.

    God uses the proclamation of the gospel to bring people to faith in Christ.

    However, not everyone who hears will believe. Only those who God has given the ability to believe, will believe.

    So God calls everyone to repent. The Spirit also inwardly calls certain people through the means of the gospel and gives them the ability to believe.

    Remember Lydia? It says that the Lord OPENED HER HEART TO BELIEVE.

    If the Lord doesn't do that, no one would be saved.
     
  18. Baptist Believer

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    Amen!

    Very true.

    Amen!

    Very true.

    Very true!

    Of course, the Calvinist would say that since God has given a person the ability to believe, that they will believe every time. Those of us who are not rigid Calvinists would say that God gives us the ability to make the choice, and many reject God’s revelation of faith.

    Good post!
     
  19. RaptureReady

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    No brother it's probably me, but lets see.

    Yes, I agree.
    Yes, I agree.
    Now this is what I have a problem with. What do you mean "ability to believe?"
    Yes, those that have heard and believe the Gospel.
    This is another bump. Why and who are these certain people? John 3:16 says whosoever.
    But the Lord does not pick and choose whose heart to open because Romans 10:13 says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." If anyone hears the Gospel and believes the Gospel and calls upon the name of the Lord to forgive them of their sins that person no matter who it is, can be saved from a devil's hell.
     
  20. Pastor_Bob

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    Could someone please explain these verses in light of the ongoing discussion?

    Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (KJV)

    Is this verse addressed only to those God chooses, or can anyone search for God and find Him?

    Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it . (KJV)

    Can anybody find "it" if they choose to look?

    I don't think a man has to go halfway; when he takes that first step toward God, God spans the entire gap Himself.

    James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. (KJV)
     

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