Who Follows Apollos?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Eladar, Aug 27, 2001.

  1. Eladar

    Eladar
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    What is up with this following of humans? Catholics follow Peter, Lutherans follow Luther, many follow Calvin...

    What's up with all of this? Paul speaks against this practice, yet it is all I see!

    We have only one Lord, it seems that all too many make their denomination God! What a sorry state for Christiandom!:'(

    [ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: JBotwinick ]
     
  2. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed
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    Could you please clarify what you mean by Lutherans follow Luther?
     
  3. Eladar

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    Lutherans are taught to believe in Luther's Small Catachism. There are certain things a Lutheran believes, or at least withing each branch of Lutheranism. Lutherans believe in infant baptism, why? It is because that is what Martin Luther taught. How many Lutheran Churches don't do infant baptisms? True, there are different groups of Lutherans. Missouri Synod doesn't believe in sharing communion with non-Missouri Synod people.
     
  4. Sir Ed

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    No, we believe in infant Baptism because that is what the Bible teaches.
     
  5. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    There is no instance of infant baptism in the New Testament.
     
  6. Sir Ed

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    Michael, that topic has been hammered to death on this board the last couple of months. I'm sorry that you missed it, but I just do not have the energy at the moment to get back into it. Perhaps you would like to start a new thread on that topic.

    I would suggest that you do a study of the catholic (ie: RCC, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, etc) understanding of Biblical Baptism to at least see where we are coming from before making goofy one line arguments like that.

    This thread is about "following men" and it should stay that way.
     
  7. Eladar

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    I wouldn't say following men, I would say following what men say about what the Bible says.

    Why is important that everyone attending the same Church believe the same things? I'm not talking about what is sinful, but things like eternal security. It doesn't affect how we live. It doesn't affect how we treat others. All it is something people argue about! If it is true, then some people will be right and some will be wrong. If it is false the same is true.

    WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? WHY MUST PEOPLE BE RIGHT ABOUT GOD'S MATTERS, NOT OURS?

    Can someone go to a church where they do infant bapitisms and yet not believe in it? Can a person not be baptized in the way a person sees fit? Why must you force your views on others? Why must we all conform?

    Why are Lutherans called Lutherans? It is because they follow what Luther taught the Bible says. It seems that every denomination has its roots in a human said the Bible says, not Jesus.
     
  8. Michael Wrenn

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    Ed,

    I have studied church history and theology passionately for more than twenty-five years; furthermore, I've been a member of the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church.

    I offered the one-liner because it was sufficient; I could say a LOT more. Baptism has been the issue that I've been focused on for a very long time. After intense study, I believe infant baptism is untenable.

    Now, in light of what I've just told you, maybe you'd like to retract your epithet, "goofy".
     
  9. Sir Ed

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    Tuor, good point! The issue may be that people mustn't be right about God's matters, but that they want and desire to be right. If you believe in and follow Jesus, you want to do it the right way.

    As for why Lutherans are called Lutherans, it is because it is a term that was forced upon them by the Roman Catholics. It wasn't a name they chose for themselves. [​IMG]

    Michael, well, you convinced me. If you believe it is untenable after 25 years of passionate study and church-hopping, it must be. Heck, I've never even thought about the issue, let alone study Scripture.

    Your statement was correct. Jesus, the disciples, the church fathers and Christians for the last 2000 years are the goofy ones. Thanks for clearing that up with a clever one-liner I've never heard before. [​IMG]
     
  10. Eladar

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    Where the name originates is not relevent. The fact is Lutherans call themselves Lutherans after Martin Luther, the founder of that denomination. When Lutheran young adults are confirmed, what book do they turn to for truth? It is not the Bible, but one man's understanding of it. True, it is based on scriptures, but it is still Martin Luther's book. The last time I checked, Luther is not considered a prophet of God.

    I was raised Lutheran, so I find it ironic that this paticular denomination is being discussed. [​IMG]
     
  11. Sir Ed

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    Once again, I am disappointed in my denomination. Someone who was raised Lutheran and thinks that we don't turn to the Bible for truth, we turn to a catechism. Very sad . . . .
     
  12. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn
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    Ed,

    Not Jesus and the disciples, just a few church "fathers", Catholics, and Magisterial Protestants. ;)

    And I appreciate your letting me set you straight. [​IMG]

    Oh, there IS a possibility I might be wrong: I won't say what I once heard Howard Cosell say many years ago on Monday Night Football: "I've never been wrong; once I thought I was, but I was mistaken." (!) [​IMG]
     
  13. Eladar

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    I didn't say Lutherans don't turn to the Bible for truth, I just said when Lutherans train their youths, they turn to what Luther wrote about the Bible.

    One thing that gets me about Missouri Synod is the fact that only members of that branch can take communion at such a church. Such exclusion of other orthodox christians to me is unbiblical.
     
  14. Sir Ed

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    Tuor, agreed. I hope that is a "cultural thing" within the LCMS that will end with time.

    Michael, please hang around the board. I would really love to have this discussion with you at some point, but I am expecting my son to be born this week and am REALLY trying to get ahead at work!
     
  15. Eladar

    Eladar
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    All these months later and the question still remains....
     
  16. Chemnitz

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    Maybe this will help with the close(d) communion question.

    CTCR Admission to the Lord's Supper

    It has been my understanding that we Lutherans took the name Lutheran to distinguish ourselves from other groups that popped up during the reformation, because the rcc was trying to lump us all together.

    When I went through confirmation class we did both catachism work and Bible work.
     
  17. Kathryn S.

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    Sorry, double post.

    [ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]
     
  18. Kathryn S.

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    Tuor:
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Philippians 3:17
    Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

    2 Thessalonians 3:7
    For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,

    2 Thessalonians 3:9
    not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.

    2 Timothy 3:10
    Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Tuor as far as your claim that Catholic’s follow Peter. Yes, we do. St. Paul too, and the church that Jesus established. Here are some reasons why we do. When you belong to the body of Christ you are one with Christ. Jesus Christ is the head of the Body and the cornerstone of the Church. St. Paul understood this and this is why he had no trouble telling people to follow his example. He says he offers himself as a model for us to follow his example. He says to follow his teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, and perseverance. By following our fathers in faith we are following Scripture and at the same time are following Sacred Tradition.

    To follow the people who are our fathers in faith is to follow Jesus Christ. St. Paul says “But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. 2 Timonthy 3:14 This means don’t just follow anybody and it doesn’t mean just read the Bible.

    Catholics have no problem acknowledging that we follow Peter, Paul, and the church Jesus established because it is how Jesus taught us to follow Him. He told Peter to feed my sheep, feed my lambs, feed my sheep. He gave his authority. The body of Christ is His sheep. By following the ones who feed us, we are following Jesus Christ the Good Shepherd.

    God Bless
     
  19. Kathryn S.

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    Tuor:
    Here is another place in Holy Scripture telling us to imitate the faith of those who lead us to Christ and speak the word of God to us. St. Paul, St. Peter, and many of the fathers of the Church have faiths that can be imitated.
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hebrews 13:7
    Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    The whole point is to follow Jesus Christ. Pick up our cross and follow Him. Not every Christian who loves Jesus Christ knows how to do this. This is why Jesus gave us a teaching Church. He gave us real people to guide and spiritually feed us. Feed my sheep, feed my lambs, feed my sheep.

    God Bless

    [ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]
     
  20. Eladar

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    If you are going to claim lineage all the way back to Paul, I would think it would have to be a perfect lineage. From what I have seen of Catholic History, the Catholic Church is far from perfect.

    And I don't buy into the passing on of the authority to another person. This is not Biblical.

    To say that the Pope has a perfect revelation is making a leap of faith. Why he wasn't perfect until men voted him perfect is totally beyond me.

    If praying to dead saints was right, then why didn't Paul pray to Stephen?

    The pantheon of Saints reminds me way too much of pagan practices world wide.

    I think I've gone on enough. Right now those are some of my major questions about Catholism.


    Godmetal,

    I would need a link that I didn't need to download.

    Thanks.
     

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