Who Follows Apollos?

<<The Catholic Church was the most humane of the institutions of that day and age. >>



http://www.reformation.org/bart.html

 

HankD,
First, I think the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre your link refers to was a terrible thing. But is that the whole story? You think the Catholic Church is the evil villian in the story. Is that accurate? Are there any other considerations you ought to take into account? Are you even willing to seriously reflect on those other considerations or not? Here are some possible considerations:

What the Huguenots did do three years earlier on St. Bartholomew's Day? And how did that contribute to the event your link is referring to? Did your link even give the background events: personal and political that led up to the event it is referring to?

The Catholic Church did not commit that massacre. So if you are blaming the Church for that, don't. Why did the pope think something good had been accomplished -- because of wrong information given to him.
He certainly was not glad when he found out there had been a massacre.

It's interesting to me that people talk about "religious wars" and never about all the politics and personal reactions behind them. I understand there is a book written on the politics behind so-called religious wars. I hope to get it and read it. There may be two different religious groups represented in a war, one group on each side but that does not make the reason for the war a religious reason. There's usually a lot more to the story than that. And an honest appraisal will take into account the entire story, not just pass on a one-sided version.

Pauline

 

Tuor,
Do you or do you not think that the Israelites were the true and only people of God in their time?

Pauline

 

Dear Pauline,

Yes, there is another side to every story.
All lawyers are aware of this fact.
What the RCC did to the human race during the years 800-1800AD is a matter of undeniable history.
There are an abundance of apologetics concerning this one incident (The Saint Bartholomew Day Massacre).
So, to be fair, nere is the "official" apologetic from the Catholic Encyclopedia,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13333b.htm


People who have an interest can get "the rest of the story" by doing a search on a web engine (like www.dogpile.com) by entering the following words - bartholomew +massacre.

The Baptist distinctives are an historical response to their heritage (and those who held these distinctives before them) of persecution by Catholics and non-Catholics as well.


HankD

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:

I am only trying to make the point that the Catholic Church has proven to be imperfect, therefore it is not God's perfect church. Church history speaks for itself
[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Tour, you have made this point many times. I thought that it might be useful to analyize your statement in light of your other beliefs.

1) God's Church must be perfect.

2) Catholics have sinned.

3) The Catholic Church is therefore not God's Church because it is not perfect due to sin.

This is your line of logic so far, is it not?

But we need to continue.

4) But no one is righteous. No one.

5) All fall short. All men sin.

The only conclusion we may reach based on your supposition that the sin of men prove that the Church is not perfect, is that there is no Church. Period.

Do you believe that?

 

Tuor,
I'm saying that God has an identifiable people on earth. He did with the Israelites and He does now with Catholics.

You are overlooking an awful lot of Bible teaching. The OT people were given a liturgy and a liturgical year for the correct way, God's way, for them to adore and serve Him.
The Catholics have carried out the fulfillment of that liturgy and liturgical year. There is liturgy in heaven. God's work has a continuity to it.

Jesus Christ Himself refered to "my Church". Paul wrote about one body, one faith, one baptism. Jude admonished Christians to contend for that faith once delivered unto the saints.

This continuity stretches throughout the Bible, to heaven.

Pauline

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
Using your logic, only Catholics are going to heaven. Do you believe this?

As I pointed out somewhere else, to assume the Catholic Church must be God's church is making a leap of faith. As I pointed out earlier, there is evidence that this claim is false.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Using your logic, only Catholics are going to heaven. Do you believe this?"

??? Please explain.

"As I pointed out somewhere else, to assume the Catholic Church must be God's church is making a leap of faith. As I pointed out earlier, there is evidence that this claim is false."

I do not assume. I avail myself of the evidence and reach a conclusion. It is called critical thinking.

To say "there is evidence" is not the same as offering that evidence.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
[QB
As I have pointed out, the institution is not perfect, therefore any such claim is suspect.


God's Church is not an institution. God's Church are God's people, otherwise known as the Elect. Each one of us is God's temple.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ][/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You are not perfect. So your claim to being God's temple is suspect.

God's temple would be a perfect temple.

Same problem with your analysis. You are simply using different words. Double-speak?

(Double-speak!! Thanks, psalm. I think that you were the first to introduce that word to this particular part of the board!! At least you were the first that I noticed using it&gt; )

 

Tuor,
I was pointing out to you how the logic of your stand on a "perfect" church fails because of your own interpretation of what that means.

Pauline

 

Hi Tuor,

You said, "As I pointed out somewhere else, to assume the Catholic Church must be God's church is making a leap of faith."

Yes, believing that the Catholic Church is the Family of God requires faith. However, this faith is not unwarranted, nor blind. It is trust in God's word that the self-same church that has existed through history from the time of the Apostles, built upon the Rock of Peter, continues to remain what she was fashioned to be when God visited this world in the fullness of the Incarnation.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
1 Corinthians 3:9-16

As you can see, what I said about each of us being God's temple is Biblical. I am sorry if you didn't already know this.

My argument against the Catholic church being "the Church of God" can be found here.

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tuor ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know we each are a temple of God. I was simply applying your logic to your position.

But you probably really knew that.

 

Hi Tuor,

I would like to point out two things to you, and I hope that this may settle two of your arguments.

Firstly, you said, "If there is really only one Church, and it is the Roman Catholic Church, then anyone who is not a Roman Catholic does not belong to the Church of God and therefore is condemned."

Your statement is an error of the Ultra-Traditionalists, who have been condemned by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church itself. Those visibly outside of the Church may indeed have a partial communion with the Church that is invisible. However, as knowledge and awareness of God's truth pervades the human mind, one becomes more susceptible to losing this communion. This point is entirely Biblical.

Luke 10:16 - ""He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Secondly, you have brought up the argument that God's Church, if visible, must be perfect. Jesus has told us that this is not so.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad. So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." (Matt 13:45-49)

Your LORD awaits your return home to his Church.. what are you waiting for?!

 

Hi Tuor

You wrote, "In any case, no where in the Bible does it say that the Church of God is an institution."

An institution is lead by those that have authority.

Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1 Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak w/ Christ's voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline.

An institution grows.

Mt 7:24 - Jesus is like the wisde man who builds his house on a rock
Mt 16:17-19 - Jesus builds his Church upon the Rock (Petras - transliterated to Peter)
Act 14:23 - they appointed presbyters in each church (notice that the congregation didn't appoint the presbyters, but the apostles did)
Acts 1:25-26 - Matthaeis takes Judas' apostolic ministry
2 Tim 2:2 - what you heard from me entrust to faithful teachers

An institution is one visibly.

Jn 10:16 - there shall be one fold and one shepherd
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
1 Cor 1:10 - I urge you that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one (how much more one can the Trinity be?)

St. Cyprian of Carthage (C. 250 A.D.) - "God is one and Christ is one, and one is His Church, and the faith is one, and His people welded together by the glue of condord into a solid unity of body. Unity cannot be rest asunder, nor can the one body of the Church, through the division of its structure, be divided into separate pieces." (On the Unity of the Church 23).

St. Cyprian, as the bishop of one of the largest Christian communities in the world at the time, wrote this more than 60 years before the Edict of Milan was issued by Constantine, which reconciled the Church with the Roman Empire. So, we can see a visible, unified Christian Church from the get-go.

It's your rereading into the Biblical text your presumption that is unBiblical and unChristian in itself.

 

Hi Tuor,

If you will only skim over my posts and not recognize my argument, then there isn't a reason for me to post, is there?

God bless,

Carson