who is john symth and gerbel?

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by stubbornboy, Oct 4, 2004.

  1. stubbornboy

    stubbornboy
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    im into a great confusion because i brought a national geographic date october 1983 and the article is on luther.and theirs a painting which suggest that baptist and anabaptist got their roots on catholcism and those 2 groups are different.what can you say about it? :confused:
     
  2. Kiffin

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    John Smyth started the First Baptist Church in 1609 through heavy influence of the Anabaptists.

    Gerbel I believe you mean...Conrad Grebel? Grebel is one of the first Anabaptists and one of my heroes.

    Anabaptists were the forerunners of the Baptist movement and we are spiritualy kin. They were dissenters from the Roman Catholic Church as all Protestants are. Baptists were originally dissenters from the Church of England.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    A good number of people, including myself and Leon McBeth (I believe) disagree with Kiffin's "spiritual kinship theory." I think the more common belief is that the Baptists descended from the Congregationalists led by John Smyth and later Thomas Helwys. The Anabaptist influence on Smyth was later and Helwys split from Smyth and followed the earlier beliefs of Smyth rather than the later.
     
  4. rsr

    rsr
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    There have been several discussions on these topics. Set your browser to display a year's worth of posts and take a look.
     
  5. rsr

    rsr
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    Pastor Larry, you are correct about McBeth, who outlines the various theories of Baptist history but specifically endorses the Separatist view.
     
  6. Bro. James

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    "John Smyth started the first Baptist Church in 1609..."

    This statement is not based on the facts. See ARTICLE For more information.

    The above referenced document is: THE ORIGIN AND PERPETUITY OF THE BAPTISTS--The Baptist Examiner.
    Chapter 5, "Baptists Did Not Begin With John Smyth, The Munsterites, or Roger Williams."

    Isn't Church History interesting?

    Selah,

    Bro. James

    [ October 05, 2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: rsr ]
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Most historians who have studied the issue believe that modern Baptists originated with John Smyth.
     
  8. Bro. James

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    "Most historians who have studied the issue..."

    Does this mean a majority of church historians have answered a survey regarding this question?

    If so, how many were asked the question and how many agreed and how many disagreed?

    Let the record reflect: there are numerous historians who do not agree that John Smyth had anything to do with anything Baptistic.

    Refer to the above referenced website:www.pbministries.org/history

    Selah,

    Bro James
     
  9. stubbornboy

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    ok so we came from the catholic church then? :( and if we came from them why didnt we inherit the goverment style of rcc?
     
  10. rsr

    rsr
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    Because the 17th century Baptists came largely from the Separatist movement, which developed into congregationalism in England (and Holland).

    The Separatists were a reaction against the Church of England, which had the same hierarchical structure as the Latin Rite church. Congregationalism was a result of the disagreement with the Anglican church and become a characteristic of the Baptists, though not their defining characteristic.
     
  11. rsr

    rsr
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    James said:

    "there are numerous historians who do not agree that John Smyth had anything to do with anything Baptistic."

    Please name one, because I'm curious.
     
  12. Bro. James

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    Per Request: a partial list of historians who would repudiate that John Smyth was the first Baptist.(In fact, not ever a true Baptist)

    1. T.Crosby,"History of English Baptists",pp.445-446.

    2. B.Evans, "Early English Baptist History," Vol.1, p.244.

    3. J.M. Camp

    4. William Cathcart

    5. John T. Christian

    6. J.R. Graves

    7. W. Kiffin

    Most of these authors would ascribe the "First Baptist" to John--The Baptist. He was the one who gathered the charter members of the First New Testament Church started by the Lord, Jesus Christ, on the shores of Galilee, circa A.D. 30.

    Yes, the one against which the gates of hell have not prevailed--She is still here today--just like Jesus promised. She is still pure--without spot, blemish, wrinkle or any such thing--the pillar and ground of the Truth. She has not been through the "Holy See" nor has She been reformed.

    God did'nt make no junk.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. Bro. James

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    P.S. to the list of historians...

    I neglected to list Bro. J.M. Carroll. Every "Baptist" should read: "Trail of Blood".

    This little book contains some "eye opening" history not found in the archives of the Vatican nor the volumes of the Catholic Encyclodedia.

    God did have a remnant in every generation--they are still here.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  14. mioque

    mioque
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    "Most of these authors would ascribe the "First Baptist" to John--The Baptist."
    "
    If it sounds to good to be true it is,
    wishfull thinking does not sound historical research make, etc.
     
  15. Bro. James

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    Sound Historical Research?

    Quoting secular platitudes does not answer the question. The fact that there is so much conjecture about this subject is reason to look carefully at all the evidence secular and biblical.

    Have you examined the writings of the above referenced church historians?

    While the Bible is not a history book, when God gives historical information, one can count on the verity--without secular corroboration. We tend to do just the opposite--we do not believe God until we "prove it" using secular wisdom and knowledge which is throughly corrupted my our depraved carnal natures.

    God said it--that settles it--whether we believe Him or not does not change the Truth of the Word.

    The New Testament has abundant examples of The New Testament Church and her perpetuity since her beginning. Mt. 16: ...on this Rock I will build MY Church and the gates of hell WILL NOT PREVAIL against her." See also Mt. 28: Go ye(the first church) therefore...and lo I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, EVEN UNTO THE END." These scriptures teach authority and perpetuity--vested in the first church--not in a man or men.

    If one follows this reasoning through the Book of Revelation, one will see the Bride, the Lamb's Wife(THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH) coming through the "Gates of Hell" without spot, blemish or wrinkle(also without reformation) even to the end of the age, which we are quickly approaching. She has come out from among the world and has not touched the unclean thing. She is qualified to be the Bride because Jesus has preserved Her just like He said He would.

    When one reads in secular history of the persecution through which The Bride has gone--"Christians?" killing Christians for standing for the Truth, one can only say: "Thank you Jesus, you have been faithful--forgive us our unfaithfulness."

    What a heritage true Baptists have!!!

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  16. mioque

    mioque
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    "Have you examined the writings of the above referenced church historians?"
    "
    Outside of the Baptist board and a couple of similar websites I doubt I've ever read anything of (or about) these men. Ordinarily this wouldn't be an issue (I've have no clue who the most important authors are in most scientific fields), but I'm a churchhistorian by trade....


    "Most of these authors would ascribe the "First Baptist" to John--The Baptist."
    "
    The only religion that might have a slim case when it comes to claiming direct descent from the group headed by John the baptist (as opposed to Jezus his disciples) is the following.
    http://i-cias.com/e.o/mandeans.htm
     
  17. Bro. James

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    Direct descent?

    Thanks for the info on "Mandeans".

    I know I am a direct descendant from the first man--Adam. I derived that from the Book of Genesis Chapter 1. Can I prove that using anthropological methods? Probably not. Do not need to. The Word of God is sufficient. The word of man is insufficient.

    The same is true regarding the history of The New Testament Church--The Bride of Christ--the one without spot, wrinkle, or any such thing--the one which has survived the onslaughts of Satan.


    She is still out there--like Jesus said,"I will never leave you nor forsake you".

    There is a war going on--for the souls of men.

    On which side are we?

    Selah,

    Bro. James

    P. S. I do not claim that The New Testament Church has been called "Baptist"in every generation. She has had a "Baptistic" faith and practice since day one. See Jude,3.
     
  18. Bro. James

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    One more thought in passing--

    Consider the words of John--the Baptist: "Behold, the Lamb of God, which takes away the sins of the world." Who was he looking at? Himself? The "mandeans" have been duped by someone trying to get to heaven "some other way".

    There is only One Way--it is spelled: J E S U S.

    No, we will not find this in the Book of Open-mindedness--it is found only in the Lamb's Book of Life.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    No, it means that you can pick up the reputable church histories and see what they say.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Speaking of history, you should study the NT history. The church did not begin until after the death of Christ. John the Baptist died prior to Christ and therefore could not have founded the Baptist church. Secondly, in the NT the baptism of JOhn is contrasted with Christian baptism. This statement is refuted simply by knowing the Scriptures.

    [/qbI am going to go out on a limb here and say that I would presume that God would prefer for you to use proper English when you speak for him, since he does all things right.

    Yes, so if God's word settles it, then why are you recommending historians? Is God's word not enough?

    This contradicts your earlier claim that JOhn the Baptist started the church. He was beheaded in Matthew 14. Furthermore, Christ's statement in Matthews 16 is future. The church he built did not begin until ACts 2.

    It doesn't teach anything about the "first church." It teaches about the church. There is only one ... It is the body of Christ, made up of all believers of this age from Pentecost to the Rapture. Christ only has one body, and it has existed in perpetuity.

    Church history is a fascinating subject, but Scripture is the authority.
     

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