who is responsible?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Jensen, Jul 9, 2004.

  1. Jensen

    Jensen
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    I tried tyhis in another section but it went no where...so here goes -

    If I fail to share the gospel with "lost person so-and-so" and he dies 10 minutes later ... was his going to hell my fault? or his fault?

    Who are the elect?

    If only certain people are "of the elect" and if one of these elect does not respond in faith to the saving power of Jesus, will they go to hell? In other words, can one of God's elect wind up in hell? {their power to resist is greater that God's power to call}
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    If he is among the elect, he will not go to hell, so fault is not an issue. But if you neglected to share the gospel out of willful disobedience, you will probably be held responsible for your willful disobedience when it comes to your rewards in heaven.

    Those whom God foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified. (Romans 8:29-30) We (humans) don't know who the elect are.

    This is an impossible scenario. All of the elect will respond in faith. All of the elect will be saved, and not a single one will be lost. (John 6)
     
  3. Kiffin

    Kiffin
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2001
    Messages:
    2,191
    Likes Received:
    0
    His going to Hell is his own fault. There is a however a responsibility on the part of Christians to share the Gospel and it is a sin to not warning the lost to embrace Christ. (Acts 20:26-27)

    Those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior.


    Calvinists teach that all the elect will respond in faith to Christ.

    No, the elect will respond in faith. A great book on Calvinism and Evangelism is C.H. Spurgeon's The Soul Winner. It should be pointed out also that the Doctrine of Election is a doctrine given not to speculate regarding who the elect are but is given to comfort those who are believers. The 39 articles of Religion of the Church of England states it well, As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God:
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you give yourself too much credit as if you have anything to do with his salvation. We do not save man. God does. We do not witness to others so that we can save them. We do so out of obedience to God's command to us.

    or his fault?[/QUOTE]

    Those who die in lost in their sin go to Hell. Now would you like to question whether it is God's fault or not and question his justice?

    Who are the elect? [/QUOTE]

    Those whom God has chosen.

    If only certain people are "of the elect" and if one of these elect does not respond in faith to the saving power of Jesus, will they go to hell? In other words, can one of God's elect wind up in hell? {their power to resist is greater that God's power to call} [/QUOTE]

    If they had free will and God was not sovereign, as the Arminians teach, this would be possible. But, if God elects you, then you will be saved.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. Jensen

    Jensen
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is where I am trying to go with this idea.... The SBC (of which I am a part of) keeps emphasizing that "baptisms are down" and "fewer people are being saved" and "what ever happened to evangelization?" If it is God who saves, and God won't allow His elect to go to hell, then what is it all about ... numbers???? We, as believers, have a responsibility to share Jesus with the lost, however, are we to "convert the non-elect" also? [I heard John Macarthur say that some people do such a bad job at presenting the gospel that even the non-elect respond]

    I am just curious as to what the issue is in the SBC... arminianism?

    That brings up another question.... can you really believe in eternal security (once saved always saved... perservearance of the saints) and and be called an arminian? I've always heard the basic doctrines of grace all tie in together...its either 5 point or no point.????
     
  6. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is where we get into opinions, which, as a Southern Baptist myself, I certainly do have one. So, here it is. I think most of this emphasis is a numbers game that concern many in the leadership. My personal opinion is that it is not necessarily a bad thing that baptisms are down and fewer people are being saved. The Bible talks about the straight and narrow road and how few will go down it. On the flip side, I have been to my fair share of tent revivals and crusades where people were coerced and pressured into walking down an aisle, saying a prayer, and getting baptized by what I view as a very arminian method of persuading people to choose (free will) by manipulating their emotions and using the wisdom of the world. However, that is merely my opinion.

    If it is God who saves,[/QUOTE]

    Is this actually in doubt? Of course it is God who saves.

    and God won't allow His elect to go to hell, then what is it all about ... numbers????[/QUOTE]

    This is my opinion, as I stated above.

    We, as believers, have a responsibility to share Jesus with the lost,[/QUOTE]

    I agree with this statement. But, I would say that this comes as an obligation because this is what God has commanded us to do? That is our motivation.

    however, are we to "convert the non-elect" also? [/QUOTE]

    Nope. That is God's job. Our job is merely to obey God and witness to others by sharing the Gospel with them.

    [I heard John Macarthur say that some people do such a bad job at presenting the gospel that even the non-elect respond][/QUOTE]

    From what I understand, Jonathon Edwards was not a great, charismatic Orater. And yet, God used him to bring about the great awakening.

    I am just curious as to what the issue is in the SBC... arminianism?[/QUOTE]

    I do think there is a lot of that is, unfortunately, present in the SBC.

    That brings up another question.... can you really believe in eternal security (once saved always saved... perservearance of the saints) and and be called an arminian? I've always heard the basic doctrines of grace all tie in together...its either 5 point or no point.???? [/QUOTE]

    There are those who don't know the specifics of 5 point Calvinism because they were never taught that truly believe you can hold to free will and OSAS. They are wrong, though, IMO.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  7. Jensen

    Jensen
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can any arminians throw in their 2 cents on this? Can one of God's elect fail to have saving faith and end up in hell?
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    #1. It is inconsistent to believe in free will and OSAS at the same time. OSAS only works in a Calvinist model. (Though I know that some Arminians believe both in Free Will and in OSAS, I think they have embraced a contradiction.)

    #2. The problem is in fact - that the Arminian view of "compelling motivation" and "calling the lost to salvation" is the correct model. Which means that NOT witnessing IS showing a lack of concern for the lost, is not in God's will (For God is not WILLING that any should perish) -- and failure to witness - failure to evangelize DOES result in "dark counties" as they used to say.

    IF Christians choose to "Get sidetracked" then evangelism is placed on the back burner and we do not expect to see conversions to Christ increase as Christians become more distracted.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, that is not possible because that would make the power of God of no effect and make man greater than God. If you are among the elect, then you will be saved.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    #1. It is inconsistent to believe in free will and OSAS at the same time. OSAS only works in a Calvinist model. (Though I know that some Arminians believe both in Free Will and in OSAS, I think they have embraced a contradiction.)</font>[/QUOTE]You are correct here.

    #2. The problem is in fact - that the Arminian view of "compelling motivation" and "calling the lost to salvation" is the correct model.[/QUOTE]

    There is, to my knowledge, no Biblical support for that model. Therefore, it is in error.

    Which means that NOT witnessing IS showing a lack of concern for the lost, is not in God's will (For God is not WILLING that any should perish) -- and failure to witness - failure to evangelize DOES result in "dark counties" as they used to say.

    IF Christians choose to "Get sidetracked" then evangelism is placed on the back burner and we do not expect to see conversions to Christ increase as Christians become more distracted.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    [/QUOTE]

    1. Witnessing is done out of obedience to Christ command primarily. It is not man who saves or who convinces others to be saved. That is God's job so that their salvation will not be based on the wisdom of man, but the power of God:

    1 Corinthians 2:1-5

    2. Calvinists are not taught not to witness. We do so because we wish to be obedient to God, because God has put that desire in us.

    3. We witness by preaching the Word, and by telling our testiminies. It is not my job to come up with some Bible Code or Left the Scripture Behind Movie to convince others of the truth of God. My job is to preach Christ and him crucified and to pray for the lost. God is the one who will bring conviction that leads to salvation to those whom he elects. That is not my job. I don't save people. God does that.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    You can bet I'll be using that title now when referring to the books/movie...
     
  12. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,408
    Likes Received:
    70
    Well, Amyraldian hypothetical universalism (4-point Calvinism or Calvinism minus limited atonement) technically also works.

    Also, props to JB for his "Left the Scripture Behind" analysis! [​IMG]
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joseph said
    That part is the same for both Arminian and Calvinist models.

    However note that Paul does not simply "go because he is told to go" RATHER he is trying to save the lost.

    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation

    Romans 91I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
    2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
    3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
    4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,


    Romans 11
    13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


    Paul does not present a "nothing I do makes any difference" model.

    Paul does not say "before I preach they are already born-again saints".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

Share This Page

Loading...