Who is the first Israeli?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    186
    A. W. Pink, in the articles compiled into "A Biblical Refutation of Dispensationalism," asserts that Abraham was a Gentile.

    Who do you consider to be the first Jew?

    Isaac?
    Jacob (whose name became Israel)?
    One of the twelve sons?
     
  2. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    Judah the son of Jacob.
     
  3. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jacob....I would assume, it seems the obvious answer as explained in Genesis. Abraham was a "gentile" (sort-of), but the term "Gentile" would have had no meaning to that point...Adam was also a "gentile".
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    That is why "the Israel is first doctrine" is so odd!
     
    #4 OldRegular, Jul 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2012
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Actually the first person identified as a Jew was one of those of the tribe of Benjamin taken to Babylon.

    Esther 2:5. Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;

    Incidentally Pink was a recovering dispensationalist.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    186
    In the Scriptures, Jacob's name was changed to Israel; the "children of Israel" refer to his descendents.

    The word "Jew" comes from the Hebrew word for one of the children of Jacob - Judah (Yehudah).

    The progress from the "tribe of Judah" to the national recognition of "Jews" took many centuries.

    Early "children of Israel" would not be called "Jews" because they were "Benjamites, Manassehites, Ephraimites, ..." The tribal grouping was very important and intermarriage between tribes was discouraged.

    After the passing of Solomon, the splitting of the kingdom and eventual removal from the land somewhat consolidated the tribes; more was made of the unique call of Jacob/Israel as "God's people" rather than specific loyalty to specific tribal groupings. Though (even to this day) a certain "heritage" of tribe is held, the sum of the total is more important than the uniqueness of the subgroup.

    Hence Mordecai was referred to as a "Jew;" however, the term was not used pleasantly. The term was used in derogatory and a corruption of the kingly family line of David (Yehudah to Yehu to Jew). It has continued even to the 21st century with certain degrading emphasis. When we say, "Ew," (as if something were stinky) that is continuing the corruption of the name of Judah and portraying the attributes of what some in the world would consider the Jews.

    Because even in modern times the term "Jew" has a certain undercurrent of unpleasantness if spoken by a "gentile," the children of Israel folks prefer the term Israeli. They, as other ethnic groupings, will use a derogatory term in referring to themselves, but prefer it to be used only by fellow Israeli folks and not gentiles.
     
  7. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    It makes no sense to make a distinction between Abraham and everyone else after him as far as being a Jew is concerned. What a fruitless topic.
     
  8. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    186
    Perhaps in your view it is "fruitless."

    The fact that A. W. Pink specified that Abraham was a gentile would then cause folks to perhaps consider the OP.

    There is a children's song sung in churches called "Father Abraham," I have considered it problematic in doctrine.

    Jesus rebuked the folks in His day for the "Father of Abraham" thinking.

    Paul and James both use the term "father" and "Abraham" connected in their writings.

    If it is so important to establish the linage of Jesus, the claim of the Israeli in the day of Jesus and the apostles, and the church being called the "Spiritual Israel," then it seems very important that folks know who the first Israeli was?

    Who was the first Israeli?

    Is there a spiritual aspect that needs to be determined in the matter?

    Why are not the believers called Israeli-ites rather than Christians?

    Is it a matter of first century derogatory demarcations, and what influence did the power holders have in the labeling?

    Why would the modern church align itself with Abraham, which places Muslims on equal footing of claim, rather than Jacob in which a clear line leading to the promise of redemption is given in Scriptures?
     
  9. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    And how does Pink become the authority on this.,

    Ok?

    The only thing I am aware of even remotely close to this thinking is when He rebuked the pharisees which had nothing to do with what you are talking about.

    Ok?

    Matt 1:17 makes it clear

    ??????

    does scripture tell us there is?

    For crying out loud

    uh yea
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    One reason the Church aligns itself with Abraham is that Scripture does:

    Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    As for Islam and Abraham: Any claim that Islam is an Abrahamic Religion is fiction and propaganda!
     
  11. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    The first place in scripture Jew is used at least in KJV is 2 Kings 6:16

    At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

    At that time the house of Israel was an ally to the king of Syria.

    IMHO Jew was a nickname the house of Israel gave to the house of Judah.

    This was at least 130 years before Judah went into captivity.

    The name Jew never applied to the house of Israel.

    Jacob would have been the first Israelite when God changes his name to Israel.
    All twelve tribes were the children of Israel. Jacob adopted the children of Joseph born to him in Egypt and named his name, Israel on them and gave to them the birthright he had taken from Esau. They are the house of Israel with the younger put over the older.
     
  12. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    186
    Good point!

    I would suggest that the alignment is to "Abraham's seed" and not Abraham, himself.

    The seed promise was Issac and not Ishmael. Through Issac (Israel) comes the messiah.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,258
    Likes Received:
    186
    Good points.

    It is also important to follow the derogatory term(s) of ethnic groups and in particular that of the Israeli.
     
  14. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37

    Maybe ἀκροβυστία by their loving brothers,
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Let me see now.

    I used to work for a Jew, not religious. Very fine man but he was not my brother. Not a believer.

    Then there was my nephew, dated a young Jewish girl. She announced her conversion experience at a family reunion. Gave my nephew 3 fine boys, one thinks he may be called into the ministry. Saw him last week, believes time will tell.

    Sadly my lovely Christian niece died two years ago after a 6 year struggle with Melanomia. Her faith during her struggle was marvelous to behold.

    That being said I know a whole lot of Spiritual Jews!
     
  16. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've been gone a while:

    I thought you were a dispensationalist..

    Did you get your mind right?

    Or more likely, I simply remember wrong.. Happens to me all the time.
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I have never been a dispensationalist. I believe the Grace of God kept me from that error. When I was saved I had and still have a fine friend, a Presbyterian elder, who steered me in the direction of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible to complement a text Bible I had been using.

    I said that I believed that God in His grace kept me away from dispensational error. Here is South Carolina many folks grew up with Scofield. I suppose that is true elsewhere. Sadly the only thing many knew about dispensational error was the "Greaat Pre-Tribuulation Raaptuure". If I had used a Scofield Bible rather than a text Bible or the Thompson Chain Reference Bible who knows what would have happened. I like to think that Bible study would have steered me away from dispensational error just as it did away from my Arminian tendencies, but???

    I go AWOL periodically. Getting that time again.
     
  18. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Adam, the first of God's chosen people
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Adam had a problem; freewill! Now where did that leave all humanity?
     
  20. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Are you saying Adam wasnt the first chosen?
     

Share This Page

Loading...