Who is the RESTRAINER of the AC?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Gavin, Oct 30, 2002.

  1. Gavin

    Gavin
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    Dear Friends,

    One of the key questions relating to the unfolding of holy history and the endtime is this. Who is the restrainer of 2 Thes. 2?
    The answer is too awesome for the middle of the road Christian. And it will lead us deeper into the devotional walk with Jesus.

    Here is a short answer to the question from the scriptures.
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm

    Grace and shalom to the saints,

    Gavin
     
  2. Bible-belted

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    It's plausible. Certainly more plausible than the retrib idea. I don't know if i would say tha it s the most plausible explanation.

    The major problem of course is the verb "katexo". The senatinc range of possibilities is rather large, and the context of 2Thess 2 is not altogether helpful in narrowing the possibilities. I know that BAGD has "restrain, check" listed with this passage, but oither options, like hinder, or occupy are not irreconcilable with the context.

    On exegetical grounds I tend to prefer either Michael or God (his power). I know there's an aexgetical case for civil government but I don't find it very persuasive.

    Historically, Paul and the Gospel have good attestation, as does Rome and the Roman Emperor.

    If pushed for a choice I might be inclined, depending on the day to say Michael or God and His power. The other options fade into the background for me.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Well, shovel me into the dustbin of theology (what a nice way of demeaning/ad hominem attack on the major theological view) since I can see no other acceptable interpretation than our blessed Holy Spirit.

    Since even the GREATEST of the created spirit beings, Michael, could not stand up to Satan in the debate over Moses' body, I cannot envision any spirit being LESS than the Holy Spirit to counter the power of the Beast/AntiChrist.

    But that's such a pathetic interpretation, I know . . . :rolleyes:
     
  4. Helen

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    I'll join you on the pathos side, Dr. Bob
     
  5. weeping prophet

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  6. Gavin

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    Dr. Bob&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    Well, shovel me into the dustbin of theology (what a nice way of demeaning/ad hominem attack on the major theological view) since I can see no other acceptable interpretation than our blessed Holy Spirit.

    Gavin&gt;&gt;&gt;
    "Major theological views" often rest on tradition. As Baptists we insist on the principle of "sol scriptura", or "the Bible alone" when we make our judgements for or against a doctrine. We parted company with our Roman Catholic friends 500 years ago because we affirmed the scriptures over what the popular church of the day traditionally taught.

    Dr. Bob&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    Since even the GREATEST of the created spirit beings, Michael, could not stand up to Satan in the debate over Moses' body, I cannot envision any spirit being LESS than the Holy Spirit to counter the power of the Beast/AntiChrist.

    Gavin&gt;&gt;&gt;
    Michael is the mighty warrior angel interceding on behalf of God's Judeo-Christian elect. The reason Michael did not rebuke Satan over the dispute over the body of Moses is not because he is a wimpy angel that cannot deliver. He made no rebuke against Satan by his own authority because he does nothing without a sovereign Word from God's throne. That was the message. We as human beings, (particularly charismatics), might do well to do likewise. We should be careful with our pronouncements regarding spiritual dignitaries. Because God will require us to give an account of every word we
    speak at the judgement.

    Dr. Bob&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    I can see no other acceptable interpretation than our blessed Holy Spirit.

    Gavin&gt;&gt;&gt; Is there scripture to support the thesis of the Holy Spirit being the restainer? I have not seen scripture proffered to support the idea by anyone. So why is it taught? Well it seems that an absent/removed Holy Spirit in the 70th week is required by our traditional eschatology. They need to terminate the age of grace 7 years early. This false characterisation of the 70th week as a wrath zone with no grace and no Holy Spirit makes people wrongly conclude that a pre 70th week rapture is essential. If I believed that the tribulation = the wrath of God I might insist that the church had to be "outta here" too. So our presuppositions about a departing Holy Spirit and a 70th week wrath zone I believe are foundational to pre-trib rapturism. When the Holy Spirit can be shown in scripture to be here on earth in a climax of glory in the endtime and even after the tribulation in the days of the 6th seal when the sun turns to darkness and the moon to blood _Joel 2:28-32 then this foundation to pre-trib can shown to be made of sand.

    But what saith the scripture concerning the witholding of evil spiritual powers? If it is not the Holy Spirit restraining then who is he? Do we know? Yes the Bible tells us plainly. If we care to listen.
    Gabriel, the angel of God's throne, told Daniel who it is who restrains. He tells us clearly in no uncertain terms. Here are his words.

    "I will tell you what is inscribed in the Book of Truth. There is NO ONE who holds/restrains with me against these hostile spirit forces except Michael your prince, (national guardian angel)."
    -Dan.10:21

    Yours in Christ,
    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm
     
  7. Daniel David

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    Gavin, you can believe in a pretrib position and still think the restrainer is Michael, the (only) Archangel.
     
  8. Bible-belted

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    That's a good point Dr. Bob. However I would question whether the events described in Jude actually happened, they being from the Asumption of Moses after all. You are, it seems, resting on the idea that the evnts are historical and accurate depictions of the people and teir limits. That is a questionable premise it seems to me. I have no doubt of course that MOses, Mihael, etc, are REAL people, but I question whether the depiction of them in the A of M is realistic.
     
  9. Gavin

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    Dear Preach the Word,

    Thanks for the reminder. I agree. Many saints holding differing views on the endtime sequence of events are coming to see that the view of Michael as the restrainer is well supported in scripture. But the pre-trib position is not as strong when the restainer=Holy Spirit/church view is laid aside in favour of the archangel Michael. The idea of the blessed Holy Spirit being that restrainer, (a jailer of demons at the bottomless pit), does not sit right either.

    Blessings,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm
     
  10. KenH

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    I believe that the emperorship of the Roman Empire was the restrainer. Once the political kingdom headquartered in Rome fell, the Roman papacy, or what is called the antichrist, was able to assume power and authority over both the nominal Christian church and had far reaching temporal power and authority as well.

    Ken

    [ October 31, 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  11. Gavin

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    Dear Ken,

    The view of the Roman Empire being the restrainer which was taken away at the fall of the Roman Empire thus revealing the pope as the antichrist has had wide acceptance throughout the middle ages and up until today. That view served the religious politics of the Reformation well. But 500 hundred years have passed. Now we stand at the threshold of the endtime drama. This historicist view would divert our attention back in time and away from the future, our future and our destiny. What if the future holds a great endtime drama, the end of the relay race of faith? -Heb.12:1 Don't the saints need to be given time and exhortation to prepare for witness? And don't they need a "heads up" to look for Jesus's second coming? Jesus told us in Mat. 24 about the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Have we seen this final blow-out climax of evil and glory yet? Have we seen the sun turn to darkness and the moon to blood and the stars fall and the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens? And what about the endtime "covenant with many" Daniel told us about in Daniel 9:27? Is that past history too? And what can we say about the Apostle Paul's info saying that the Day of Christ/Day of the Lord will NOT come until the falling away=apostasy=appalling desertion of the faith occurs first? -2Thes. 2

    We are in a spiritual war. Like any war it is an information war. Our enemy wants to disable the church by feeding it wrong information and keeping it ill informed and unprepared. If we are unprepared then the shock of events will cause many to desert and "fall away". This is the burden of the post-trib saints.

    Is it possible that historicism along with preterism is giving us dissinformation about the endtime and thus betraying the endtime saints?

    Grace and shalom,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm
     
  12. KenH

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    Gavin,

    I am a postmillennialist and therefore only a partial preterist.

    I think any of the four major eschatological views serve the church well as the focus of all four is on Jesus and the salvation of His people. [​IMG]

    Peace,

    Ken
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    Hello!

    I'm back!!

    2 Thess 2:6-7 is the mostly hot debate than any verse in the Bible today.

    Myself notice there are few different views of being to identify restrainer:

    Holy Spirit
    Church
    God
    Satan
    Antichrist
    Roman Empire
    Archangel Micheal

    Which one of them is correct?

    Early Church intepreted 2 Thess 2:7 - 'he' is Roman Empire. Nearly no Early Christians saying, 'he' is Holy Spirit in their time.

    When I first heard on 2 Thess 2:7 'he' is Holy Spirit as restrainer, when the Holy Spirit leaves, as the Church rapture then Antichrist to be revealed years ago. I was not really not understand what 2 Thess 2:7 is talking about. Although, I accepted their teaching. The way they teaching on 2 Thess 2:7 - 'he' is Holy Spirit as restrainer is teaching by Baptists.

    I am still a Baptist since I was a pretribber before. Today, I am still a Baptist, while I am a posttribber.

    I consider 2 Thess 2:7 is the most difficult to interpreting.

    10 years ago, I read two books - "The Sign", and "Prewrath Rapture". Both books believe 2 Thess 2:7 'he' is Archangel Micheal.

    I do not agree with them. I already talked to Gavin in person about 2 Thess 2:7. I told him, Apostle Paul does not identify 'he' is Archangel Micheal. Gavin told me, he believes 'he' is Archangel Micheal. I respect him well.

    I do study 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 many times.

    The key that we could understand 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 better is, we have to read contextually from verse 1 to 8, so, we could understand the whole context what Paul was talked about.

    Before Paul wrote second epistle to the Church of Thessalonica. He already wrote the first epistle to the Church of Thessalonica, explained about the coming of the Lord. The first epistle of Thessalonians is the theme or topic is about the coming of the Lord.

    After he wrote the first epistle to them. I believe Paul might already heard rumours from Christians in the area of Thessalonica about the timing of Christ's return. I am sure he was upset with them. They were misunderstood him on the coming of the Lord.

    So, he have to write another epistle to the Church of Thessalonica again. He have to explain to them on the coming of the Lord again.

    That's why, Paul told them, that he beseeches them to pay attention to his teaching repeat on the coming of the Lord - 2 Thess 2:1.

    Paul told them, that he told them, don't be panic, worry, high hope, excellent by hear the rumors on the day of Christ is already arrived or anytime - 2 Thess 2:2.

    Paul told them, don't let anyone deceive them on the rumours or false teaching on the timing of Christ's return. He told them, day of Christ will NOT come till we will see falling away first(apostasy), and we will see Antichrist to be revealed BEFORE day of Christ comes - 2 Thess 2:3.

    Paul told them, Antichrist will be blasphemy against God, as he exalteth himself as God, and he will rule over the temple of God(Church- 1 Cor. 3:16; & 6:19 too)same with Rev. 13:6-7 - 2 Thess 2:4.

    Paul told them, that they remembered what he already explained to them (1 Thess 3:4) that we shall have tribulation and persecutions same with 2 Thess 2:4 & Rev. 13:6-7.

    Paul explained to them, what thing is holding back Antichrist from being to be revealed in his time - 2 Thess 2:6. My understanding of 2 Thess 2:6 is talking about Antichrist is now being holding back from being to be revealed, because it is not Antichrist's time to be reaveled yet. Because God is in His control of His time, and the plan.

    I have an illustration on 2 Thess 2:6. In the book of Job in the Old Testament. Satan went up to heaven, to face God sat on the throne. Satan asked Him, for the permission if he can harm or kill Job. God told him, no he can't touch Job. Satan obeyed God's authority.

    Same with Antichrist, he cannot to be reaveled in his time. Because it is not his time yet. God is in His control of His time. God knows the right time. Then, God will allow Antichrist to be revealed when the time comes.

    Paul told them, the mystery of iniquity is already doing work in the world today - 1 John 2:18 & 4:3 - 2 Thess 2:7a.

    My understanding of 2 Thess 2:7a is talking about the wicked system is already work spread over the world since creation to today. Because, Paul called Satan, 'god of this world'. God allows Satan to rule over the world, but he is limited by God.

    Paul told them, he is now holding back right now -2 Thess 2:7b.

    My understanding of 2 Thess 2:7b is talking about Antichrist is now holding back from being to be revealed, because it is not his time yet.

    "letteth will let" of KJV seems weak translation to me. It translated from Textus Receptus(Greek) saying holding back. I refers to depend on Textus Receptus translation, because KJV was translated come from Greek. That's why I depend on Greek.

    Paul told them, he will be removed out of the midst - 2 Thess 2:7c

    My understanding of 2 Thess 2:7c is talking about, God will allow Antichrist to be removed from the mystery when the time comes.

    I don't see gathering together or Holy Spirit leaves in 2 Thess 2:7. Not what Paul was talking about.

    Remember the hermenuetic rule- Interpreting in Contextually.

    Who is 'he' of 2 Thess 2:7? You have to start read with verse 3 first. 2 Thess 2:3 says, "man of sin" means Antichrist. Then, Paul continued explained on Antichrist from verse 3 thru 8.

    "himself" "he" "Himself" "he" - 2 Thess 2:4 is context with verse 3 is Antichrist.

    "he" "his" - 2 Thess 2:6 is context with verse 3 is Antichrist.

    "he" "his" - 2 Thess 2:7 is context with verse 3 is Antichrist.

    "Wicked" - 2 Thess 2:8 is context with verse 3 is Antichrist.

    You can't find any verse in this chapter saying Holy Spirit.

    The contextually of 2 Thess 2:3-8 is focus on Antichrist.

    Paul told them, when Antichrist is removed from the midst(mystery) then.... He is revealed - 2 Thess 2:7c - 8!!!

    I don't see rapture or removal of the Holy Spirit in 2 Thess 2:7.

    2 Thess 2:7 is not talking about rapture or removal of the Holy Spirit. It is talking about Antichrist is now holding back from being to be revealed.

    2 Thess 2:7 is not the evidence of pretribulation.

    The teaching of 2 Thess 2:7 is the removal of the Holy Spirit by Baptist is only 100 years old doctrine.

    Early Church does not teach on 2 Thess 2:7 is the removal of the Holy Spirit. Because pretribulation doctrine was not exist in the Early Church.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  14. Gavin

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    Hi Ken,

    I didn't realise you were postmil. My understanding of postmil is that they hold that the present age is the millennium. The Lord will come back at the end of this age which postmil teachers say is the Millennium of the church. Not until the church has completed her mission will Christ return.

    As a premillennialist I would consider this the evil age which began in the garden of Eden. This evil age will end when Messiah comes to set up His kingdom which I consider to be a literal 1,000 years of His rule upon this earth over mortal humankind.

    Ken, I do not understand the partial preterism connection to postmil. I know it is becoming quite common among some of the victorious church/kingdom now/ dominionist/new charismatics. How much of the 70th week do you think is still future? The first half or the second half? Could you explain this a bit.

    Blessings,
    Gavin
     
  15. weeping prophet

    weeping prophet
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    Gavin, I would easily recant on the Holy Spirit being the restrainer but I see no need to. I would'nt pound the pulpit on it either, but as far as the church being unprepared I don't believe it will be because of lack of information. Jesus said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only."(limited info.) and again,, "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." (Be ready now.)Even if we could pinpoint the very hour in which these things take place, it should not effect our preparedness, as Jesus has taught that we should be prepared now.I would'nt bet my life on any of these endtime doctorines. Blessings,WP
     
  16. KenH

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    Sorry, Gavin, but I haven't gotten involved in all of the minutae of eschatology(my interest in minutae is in soteriology). I simply believe there will be a golden age of the church(a long period of time but not necessary a literal thousand years) that has not happened yet when most of the people on the earth will be true Christians before the return of Jesus. I am sure there are other postmillennialists who can explain details that I am not ready to do yet. I do want to get into the details in studying postmillennialism but I haven't done so yet, at this point I believe it on a sorta pro forma basis. I probably know more about the minutae of dispensational premillennialism(I listened Hal Lindsey's radio program for years and years) than I do the other three major eschatological views.

    An interesting subject. I'm glad understanding it all correctly isn't necessary for salvation. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  17. Gavin

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    Dear Weeping Prophet,

    I agree that we cannot judge our brothers and sisters in matters of devotion. And in the endtime drama we cannot speculate over who will apostasize and who will go on to glory. But false information does cause confusion and fear. This leads the flesh to react in the wrong way. The military knows this and trains soldiers to listen to orders as they are unsealed and to advance even when their senses are full of forboding and fear. So if preparedness is a matter of devotion and following of the real orders and not false orders then our scriptural studies on endtime themes could be a matter too critically important for the current popularity contests/book sales in eschatology. The spiritual lives of hundreds of millions of Christians hang in the balance. And this is a matter far more important than just the timing of the rapture. We must ask ourselves "Is the church called to witness the New Covenant?" Here is an article addressing this issue from the holy scriptures.
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/bloodcove.htm

    Blessings to you on the pilgrimage,

    Gavin
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

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    Gavin,

    Amen. I agree with you.

    Early Church were suffered and persecuted by Roman Empire. Many Christians were thrown in Colosseum, eaten to death by wild beasts. Many Christians were hang on the wood pole and burn to death. Apostle Paul were beaten with stripes 39 times 5 times(2 Cor. 11:24)he suffered so painful for Christ's sake.

    Christians were persecuted and killed by Catholics during Spanish Inquistion during Middle Age period.

    When Russia was communism, many Christians were persecuted by soldiers.

    Today, in the Middle East, many Christians are persecuting and killed by Muslims. In China, it is communism, many Christians are killed.

    Many Christians are suffering face persecutions in the world today. Are we better than them?

    In America, it is freedom, and liberty. We can worship the Lord in America. It is not much persecution in America today. But, wait you will see great persecutions will hit Christians in America in the near future.

    Many Christians are looking forward for a blessed hope rapture anytime. I do looking foward for a blessed hope at the second coming. Most Christians are not prepare for the coming persecutions, because they looking for rapture first. Many will be shock and fear and not ready to face persecution in America.

    Blessed hope is eternal life, not rapture - Titus 1:2; and 3:7 accord with 2:13.

    The Bible does not promise us that we will never face tribulation and persecution. John 16:33 and Acts 14:22 telling us, we will face tribulation and persecution. Because Christ already suffered so much on the cross for us. So, we should be suffer like Jesus' example - 1 Peter 2:21.

    We should be prepare for to face persecution anytime in our life. To keep our spiritual and devotion focus on the Lord no matter what kind of the condition we are facing. Lord always care on us.

    When the persecute come on you, don't be fear of them, look up on the Lord - Matt 10:28.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  19. Gavin

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    Dear Deafposttrib,

    Some good thoughts. It was good to see you at the Chattanooga posttrib conference in June. What a gathering. All 30 of us! It seems we are still getting just a trickle of saints interested in going deeper into the scriptures. I get very discouraged at times. But then I remember Gideon. I remember you and your deaf partner. The many questions. The flipping through the Bible. You caused me to think and question and dig deeper.

    Blessings to you my friend,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org
     
  20. Gavin

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    Dear Ken,

    From my journeys it seems that my postmil brethren are quite a bit more optimistic about the church being able to "take the world for Christ" than we premillennialists. I admire their zeal. My only concern has been the spectre of a "last crusade".
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/70wks9.htm
    900 years have passed since the west ventured into the middle east with sword in hand to take over the region for Christendom. We are gearing up for a "war against terror" in the same area, the cradle of civilization. It will wake the echoes in the Caucasus mountains. Even now the American Eagle is approaching the strongholds of Gog. The oil in the Caspian sea region is another draw. Chevron and BP and Texaco are in there paying Americans $500 a day to work there in the compounds. And the new world order needs Christians to come onboard to sanctify this economic/military venture into the region and towards the old city of Babylon. All this activity over there is historic and highly significant. God be with us all.

    It is good to talk with you, Ken. You have a gracious style of sharing. I wish you every blessing in your pilgrimage.

    Your servant in Him,

    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org
     

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