Who Killed Christ? Jews or Romans?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DrJamesAch, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
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    One regular poster on here who continues to blame the Jews EXCLUSIVELY for the death of Christ claims that the Romans were not at all responsible for the death of Christ, but the Jews only. This is a ridiculous and absurd view of responsibility not to mention is one of the reasons that Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church used to justify murdering millions of Jews.

    "And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941.

    Naturally, racists love this line of logic in exempting the Romans from culpability in the death of Christ because they believe that their pure white Aryan race stems through the Romans (based on the Nordic Theory).

    But what these racists ignore is that it wasn't merely a WHO that was responsible for the death of Christ, but a WHAT.......S-I-N.

    First of all, the first person that attempted to kill Christ WAS A ROMAN-Herod. Matthew 2:1-16. Rome had an equal interest in preventing Christ from being recognized as King because they feared that the prophecies about Christ may be true, which would subvert Roman dominance in the world. The Jews clearly undertood this fact when they said "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation." John 11:48

    Secondly, the Jews only "convicted" Christ of blasphemy (Luke 22:71), but they did not have the authority to carry out the death penalty;

    "Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death: That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die." John 18:31-32

    The Jewish law for capital punishment for blasphemy was stoning (Leviticus 24). The form of capital punishment under ROMAN law was CRUCIFIXION. Was it the Jews that scourged Christ? No it was the Romans, specifically PILATE(John 19:1). Was it the Jews that crowned Him with thorns and mocked Him? No, it was the Romans (John 19:2-3). The order of death came from Pilate,

    "When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him." John 19:6

    Whether Pilate found fault or not, and whether or not he feared the accusation that he would not be a friend of Caesar, the earthly authority (but see John 19:11!) to crucify Christ was in Pilate's hand, and ultimately Pilate delivered an innocent Man to be crucified. John 19:16

    Ironically, a proof text sited by this racist for deterministic theology is Acts 4:27-28 which shows that it is Jews AND Gentiles alike who are responsible for the death of Christ,

    "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

    Furthermore, Hebrews 6:4-6 is clear that ANYONE who rejects Christ after being illuminated and enlightened can be guilty of crucifying the Son of God afresh. Moreover, being a Gentile does not excuse one from culpability for murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Romans 2:14-16. Did the Jews kill Christ? Of course they did, BUT SO DID THE ROMANS. Did the Jews demand that Christ blood be on their heads and their children? Yes they did, and they have certainly got what they asked for, but ultimately it was the FATHER'S PLAN that Christ be a sacrifice for sin that WE ARE ALL responsible for, and Christ's willingness to be crucified. Matthew 26:39,53, John 10:18.

    Just because the apostles laid the blame of the death of Christ at the Jews feet does not mean that the Gentiles were exempt. The apostles were directing this at the Jews because it was the Jews to whom Christ came first. Matt 15:24, and the unbelieving Jews did not believe they had done any wrong. You can't be saved unless you can admit you are a sinner. So the Jews had a GREATER responsibility in the death of Christ, but not SOLE responsibility. Notice in John 19:11 that Jesus tells Pilate, "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin". Jesus didn't tell Pilate that the Jews had the ONLY sin, but the GREATER sin.

    In Zechariah 12 is the prophecy that tells in part about the piercing of Christ. The phrase "and they shall look on him whom they have pierced" has multiple applications and fulfillments. In Zechariah it is a reference that applies to the day of Christ's crucifixion AND the second coming of Christ after the battle at Megiddo. Zech 12:10-11. In John 19:37, this phrase is in application to ROMAN SOLDIERS who break the legs of Christ. And then it is applied to ALL in Revelation 1:7.

    And finally, if the Jews were solely responsible for killing Christ, then it can only be the Jew to whom Christ extended His desire for forgiveness. Luke 23:34. If it were merely the Romans to whom this was offered because they did so out of ignorance, then no Jew could ever be saved, but then Paul wouldn't be saved. 1 Timothy 1:13. If BOTH were responsible for the death of Christ, then Christ statement shows that He opened the door for ALL by asking the Father not condemn the world (John 3:17) for their sin which is ultimately the reason Christ had to die.

    "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Cor 5:21
     
  2. agedman

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    NO ONE is responsible for the death of Christ but Christ, himself.

    John records these words in chapter 10:

    14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

    See in this passage that Christ died not only for the Jewish believers but for the Gentile believers as well.

    He did it because that was the commandment the he received of the Father.

    All authority in both the death and resurrection is the responsibility of Christ.

    He is totally responsible for all aspects of His treatment, death and resurrection.

    His life wasn't taken, stolen, no insurrection and rejection was the cause, nor was He murdered.

    He was born to die upon Calvary, He states so Himself:
    27 “Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.28 Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.”

     
  3. preacher4truth

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    Good post but it falls well short of the truth. The responsibility of man is also to be included as per the book of Acts. In this we see the guilt of the Israelites who crucified him with wicked hands. That said your post is incomplete.
     
  4. agedman

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    I flatly reject that the responsibility for the death of Christ is with man. That is just more man desire to be responsible for their own salvation, thinking. It is also the excuse too often used to persecute and extend no friendship to the Jewish people.

    The Acts passage:
    23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
    If it was the "predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" then humankind was not responsible but fulfilling what God determined. Previous post states that was truly Christ's words.

    24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 For David says of Him,
    ‘I saw the Lord always in my presence;
    For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
    26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
    Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
    27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
    Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
    28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life;
    You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’

    29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
    ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    “Sit at My right hand,
    35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’

    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
    That Peter states they (the Jews) used ungodly men to put him to death does not equate they are responsible for the death - rather that Peter is showing it is the SAME Jesus, that they demanded by put to death, that is also the victor over death and life and is now glorified by the Father - Just as the Prophet(s) stated, Christ affirmed would happen, and Peter states was God's direct determined purpose.

    Peter didn't blame them, but showed it was not someone else but the very same one that was crucified.

    There is only ONE to blame for the death - God. None other is responsible.
     
  5. Aaron

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    Pilate crucified Christ to placate the Jews. The Jews falsely accused Christ, they delievered Him up, and they rejected Pilate's acquital. Under tremendous pressure from Rome to keep the peace in Palestine, and not wanting another insurrection with which to deal, Pilate crucified Christ for the Jews.

    Them's the facts. Sorry.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    Christ died by his own design and will and at the very moment He chose to. Want to find and place blame on Jews or Romans is immature. He died for the sins of the world. If anything we are all culpable. Move on for the love of God.
     
  7. Aaron

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    In the same vein we would have to confess that God is responsible for all the innocent deaths on earth. Willing to go that far?
     
  8. Winman

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    Acts 2:23 is not saying that God determined that these men would put Jesus to death, it is only saying that Jesus was "delivered" by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. Read again...

    Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Note the comma. Jesus was delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, but God did not determine or cause the Jews and Romans to put Jesus to death. God never causes any man to sin, God does not even so much as tempt men to sin.

    That Jesus was delivered by God is shown in the garden;

    Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

    Jesus did not HAVE to allow himself to be taken, he said he could have called on his Father, and that he SHALL give him more than twelve legions of angels to rescue him.

    However, it was necessary that Jesus allow himself to be taken so that the scriptures be fulfilled.

    But the men who crucified and killed Jesus were acting on their own.
     
  9. agedman

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    What keys does Christ now possess and which He now has total authority to exercise?

    His own words.

    His own statements.

    His stated purpose.

    His statement of God's command.

    Would you deny that the above are not specifically found in Christ's earthly ministry?

    Are you willing to accept that Jesus said,

    "18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” ​
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    The sins of the elect which had to be paid for Made this death necessary....

    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
     
  11. agedman

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    Winman,

    Look at the first post in which I quoted exactly what Christ said would happen and who COMMANDED it to happen.

    You are making a huge leap by proclaiming that it was sinful that Christ died, and that God would sin by killing anyone.

    Yet, is it not true that in more than one occasion God not only sanctioned, but commanded the death of "innocent" (in our eyes) people.





    Again, the words of Christ:
    9 Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30 I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.

    Christ did not merely "allow" folks acting out of their own volition to take Him, but in every event of the Crucifixion the prophets spoke what would happen centuries before.

    I realize that your indoctrination will give no room to accept these things, but these things are Scripture.
     
  12. saturneptune

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    Best post of the thread. The opening post is very shallow. It only goes as far as the method that crucified our Savior. Christ went to the cross because of His own choice because it was the will of the Father. God's love for his children sent Christ to the cross to atone for our sins. Everyone of us is responsible in that manner.

    If one wants to explore the surface reasons for Christ's death, a debate between the Jewish leadership of the day and the Romans, consider the following facts. Pilate was a weak, spineless leader. Roman government was totally secular, having no knowledge or responsibility for the Law or guarding sacred ideals. On the other hand, the Jewish leadership of the day was charged with knowing the Law of God and Scripture as it existed at the time. They were the custodians of the Law. These are two cultures that clashed on every level.

    How did Christ react to the two? Christ got angry at two things in the Bible, people who tried to make a buck off the house of God and the Jewish leadership. Christ referred to the Jewish leadership as hypocrites, whitewashed tombs, brood of vipers, sons of the Devil, etc. Never once did He show anger at the Roman government. So what is one to conclude? The Roman government was brutal but ignorant of Scripture. The Jewish leadership on the other hand knew the Law and Scripture and used it in a warped way for their own self indulgence and power. They were the essence of evil. Christ had them pegged. While both were guilty, there is no comparison in the amount of guilt of each group. The Jewish leadership carries the greatest by far amount of guilt.
     
  13. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup:Bingo!! Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for her. Amen!! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  14. Alcott

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    Who Killed Christ? Jews or Romans?

    He was killed by the Jews, the Romans, the thieves on either side of him, O.J. Simpson, George Zimmerman, the butler, and everyone else. We all had a part in the death of Someone who died to benefit us.
     
  15. Winman

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    God did not cause Judas to betray Jesus, God in his foreknowledge KNEW that Judas would betray Jesus. God never causes any person to sin.

    Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    Does this verse say God determined or caused Judas to betray Jesus? NO, it says Jesus "knew from the beginning" who should betray him. This is foreknowledge.

    It is you that has been indoctrinated to believe that God causes sin. God never so much as tempts any man to sin.

    Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    Jesus laid down his life, no one took it from him. This is what was determined, and this is what his Father commanded him.

    Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    What commandment did Jesus receive here? Does it say God commanded men to kill Jesus? NO, it says Jesus was commanded to lay down his life.

    It is your doctrine that prevents you from seeing that God allows men to act freely. God did not cause or command any man to kill Jesus, but God in his foreknowledge KNEW men would hate Jesus and crucify him, and so God allowed this to happen to bring about his purpose that Jesus would die for us.

    What WAS determined and commanded by God is that Jesus would willingly lay down his life. He did not HAVE to lay it down, in the garden he clearly told us he could have called on his Father, and his Father would have immediately sent more than 12 legions of angels to rescue him.

    Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    This question demands a YES answer. Jesus did not have to allow himself to be taken in the garden. So, Jesus shows he obeyed his Father by CHOICE.

    It is your doctrine that does not allow you to see the truth.
     
    #15 Winman, Aug 1, 2013
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  16. kyredneck

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    You all can ignore the plain statements of scripture and sentimentalize/hypothesize/idealize/theorize/romanticize/emotionalize all you want on who killed Christ, but it will never change the fact that the Holy Spirit squarely places the blame on the Jews:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1999781#post1999781
     
    #16 kyredneck, Aug 1, 2013
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  17. kyredneck

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    For pete's sake, the Jews themselves took the blame for it!

    24 So when Pilate saw that he prevailed nothing, but rather that a tumult was arising, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this righteous man; see ye to it.
    25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
    26 Then released he unto them Barabbas; but Jesus he scourged and delivered to be crucified. Mt 27
     
  18. Aaron

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    Very good. His eternal purposes are served even in the evil which He has ordained.

    That doesn't change the fact that evil men intend their evil actions for evil, and are guilty of the evil. God is the one who delivered Joseph into the hands of his murderous brothers, but what He intended for good, they intended for evil, are are guilty.
     
  19. Protestant

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    With all due respect to agedman and others, I believe the discussion needs to be re-directed to the original question which is "guilt." Who is "guilty" of Christ's murder?

    Surely we can all agree that the crucifixion of Christ is the most heinous sinful act in all history.

    Furthermore, we need agree that the Lord God is pure, holy, all-wise and righteous, with whom there is no shadow of turning. Nor does He tempt anyone to do evil. Nor does He approve of evil.

    It is impossible for God to deny Himself....to be that which He is not. Had the blame and responsibility of Christ's death be posited to the Lord, then He would no longer be blameless. Rather, He would have been guilty of murdering His own innocent beloved Son......which is sin. If that be the case (which it is not) then we must conclude that God is a liar and not to be trusted.

    Nowhere in the Scriptures is God found guilty of violating any of His precepts, let alone condoning or practicing evil. Instead, all the blame for evil is posited with man.

    Atheists have used the same argument - God is guilty of sin - when postulating the origin of sin. They claim if God is omniscient and omnipotent, how then could sin have entered the human race through Adam unless God ordained it? If God ordained it, then He is to blame...He is responsible. He is the Author of sin. On the other hand, if He did not ordain it, then He is not omnipotent and all-wise. For if He were omnipotent and all-wise, then certainly He would have altered the outcome to prevent death and suffering from entering the world.

    Arminians skirt the issue of God ordaining Adam's sin, by claiming God allowed Adam to make a free will choice, but He in no way decreed Adam would sin.

    However, the Scriptures clearly state repeatedly that nothing transpires in Heaven or earth with the will of God. For if an event did transpire without His will, then that which caused that particular event is greater than God.....which is impossible.

    The Apostle Paul confronts the issue of man's responsibiity, fault, blame and guilt despite the fact that God Almighty ordained, decreed, and willed the outcome. This can be found in Romans 9:18 ff:

    "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    The argument used against Paul concerning God's sovereign election and reprobation (dependent only on the will of God and not the will or actions of man) regards the impossibility of man's culpability and guilt if that be the case. For who can resist the will of omnipotent God who has decreed in eternity this man will be saved from his sin while that man will be condemned for his sin?

    In other words, God would then be unjust and unrighteous if that be the case. For the guilty condemned sinner could not be anything else but that which God willed.

    Paul does not attempt to explain how, exactly, God is not guilty of wrongdoing because the explanation lies within God alone. Instead, Paul castigates the naysayers by appealing to the sovereign freedom of the infinite Holy Creator, whose thoughts and ways are to marvelous for finite, sinful men to comprehend. (Romans 11:33 ff.)

    Therefore, the Lord God decreed from eternity all the evil acts of evil men, including the crucifixion of Jesus, though He in way is to blame, responsible or at fault for their sins.

    Jesus acknowledges this truth when speaking to wicked Pilate:

    "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

    The power to sin was given by God, for which Pilate was guilty. However, the greater guilt was to the Jews who delivered Jesus to Pilate, who also performed the will of sinless, blameless holy God.
     
  20. preacher4truth

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    Bingo -- brother, with all due respect you are trying to convince a man against his will -- he'll twist Scripture 'til Kingdom come and won't see it, and Scripture is this glaringly obvious concerning this fact and he still can't see it, yet this is status quo for him to date on BB.
     
    #20 preacher4truth, Aug 1, 2013
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