Who knows what is right?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Mark d1299, Oct 24, 2004.

  1. Mark d1299

    Mark d1299
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    Lot of disscussion on salvation. Just wish I could find someone who knew the truth for sure. Surely there is one way and not a hundred! WHO'S RIGHT? Baptist, Methodist, Church Christ, or who? I'd kinda like to know.
     
  2. Rachel

    Rachel
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    Hello my name is Ernest, Rachel's husband, and I would like to help. [​IMG]

    First we need to establish that the "Bible" is the word of God. No matter how many translations or paraphrases there are, God had kept His word in tact.
    Jesus said in John 14:6 Jesus said* to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    And in John 1:1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    So If Jesus said he was truth and he was the word, the word must be the truth. Now, all of this depends on whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ, so lets assume you do.

    The Bible says in John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    So you must believe in Him "Jesus" to receive "eternal life", but what to believe about him. Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    So, If you have read your Bible and found my quotes to be accurate, you now know how to have "eternal life" or "salvation".

    Now as far a "denominations" you need to know one thing, to be a "Christian" you need to follow essential Christian teaching. And that is,

    Jesus is the son of God, born of a virgin, lived a sinnless life, died on the cross for the sins of a lost world, was put in a tomb and was raised three days later.

    Demominations, are you ready, DO NOT MATTER.
    :eek: Say it aint so!

    Thats right, we as sinful people have decided to split up Gods family, into clicks.

    Paul experienced the same type of division in the early church. And below is what he said to the people of Corinth;

    In 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    As far as finding a group of believers to join, or a church to go to. You should through much prayer to God, ask to be shown the way. Ultimately I chose to go to a church that lined up with scripture the closest. But I don't follow the church or the pastor, I follow the Son of God, Jesus. And if something I am told in church or by the pastor doesn't line up with scripture I will point it out.

    I pray that I have been able to help you,I have tried to stick to your posts as much as possible although there is much more that you should hear, I will be glad to discuss anything you would like. I would like to say one more thing. Do not be discouraged by those that will seek to divide Christians for their own agenda. Believe in Jesus and his Father, and the Bible.

    Thank You
    Ernie Johnson
     
  3. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Hi Mark!

    It’s me, Craigbythesea, from the eternal security thread. I read your post in this thread also, and I read Ernie Johnson's reply. And Mark, I agree with Ernie 100%. There are many different denominations largely for the same reason that there are there are many different kinds of music, architecture, automobiles, sports, etc. Human beings are a very diverse lot, and that diversity is reflected in our preferences for different types of churches and our interpretations of the Bible.

    I was raised in a family that never read the Bible and went to church only once that I can remember, and I have no idea why we went there. The only thing that I can remember about it is drinking the grape juice.

    Many years later I got saved in an Assembly of God Church, but I was already going to Bible studies several nights a week at a Baptist coffee house and I continued going there for several months until it closed. The Assembly God Church and the Baptists at the coffee house believed mostly the same things, but they differed on the matter of eternal security and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I wanted to know who was right and who was wrong, so I prayed and prayed for God to teach me His truths and to protect me from error. And I read the Bible! I read it and read it and spent as much time as I good talking with other Christians, asking them what they believed and why. I soon discovered some Christian bookstores that sold very many different books about the Bible. And I began buying the books and reading them. And soon I was buying books about the Bible from used bookstores, not only in the U.S., but also in England. It was not long before I learned that there were very many interpretations about a whole lot of different things. Therefore I continued to pray every day for God to teach me His truths and to protect me from error.

    Many years have passed, and God has taught me much, but I am still praying for God to teach me His truths and to protect me from error and I have never fallen into any false teachings. God loves you, Mark. Pray as I do for God to teach YOU his truths and to protect YOU from error, and God will not let you down. Seek the Lord with all your heart, trusting in him for everything in every situation, and you will see God perform miracles in and through your life.

    God loves you, Mark, and He placed you and your need upon our hearts and we love you too [​IMG] .

    [​IMG]
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Craig,

    I enjoy read your testimony. You did the right thing to be careful and study the Bible seriously according to 2 Timothy 2:15.

    I grew up in Lutheran family. I was bring to church every Sundays by my parents. I was baptized as infant baby at Lutheran Church.

    I took confirmation class at Lutheran School for the Deaf in Detroit, MI., in year 1982-84. I was the top student in that class, because I was so eager to learning God's Word, passed tests many times.

    After I was confirmation, I attend Model Secondary School for the Deaf(high school) in Washinton D.C. in 1984. I was in dark during in my teen years at school in D.C.

    I withdrawed school in 1987, I attend Lahser High School in Bloomfield Hills, MI. That school have special hearing impaired program.

    I loved to draw many pictures, my goal was want to become archtitect.

    But, somehow, one day, at my work. During breaktime, I went into the breakroom, I saw young employees read Chick tract -"Somebody has Goofed". They were laughed at it, and leave it on the table. I was curious, picked up tract, and reading it. I enjoy read through it, and I kept it in my pocket.

    I showed it to my mother. And she said to me, it is junk. Then next day, I showed it to my friends at school. They said to me, it is stupid. I went to the vocational education school in the drafting class. I showed it to the interpreter. She was so excited. I didn't realized that God had sent her to the drafting class for the purpose of my salvation.

    I asked so many questions to her about prophecy in the Bible like as rapture, 666, antichrist, tribulation, second coming, etc. I learned lot of things from her.

    I did read Hal Lindsey books, and Jack Van Impe maginazes on the end times prophecy.

    But first, before I start to read Lindsey & Impe's books. I did pick up Bible and to read in the book of Revelation. I did reading through whole 22 chapters of Revelation for 4 hours in a night!!! :eek:

    It was so overwhelming for me. I do not understand them. But, Rev. 3:20 reminds me very well few months before my salvation.

    When I read book of Revelation in the Bible, I do not understand them, but I won't give up, and still reading and study Revelation often and often.

    One day, in August 15, 1988. I went to deaf camping host by Assembly of God. That night during the service, I was not pay attention to the preacher preaching. I was chatted with my friend during the service same time. During the closing service, the preacher asked for invitation time. I notice half of 300 deaf people came down for prayer. I notice there are three different ways of prayer: some are pray by waving arms and shout with mouth, some are pray with sign language, some are pray while silence close their eyes and mouth. So, I came down and pray with silence, closed my eyes and mouth, saying nothing for about 5 minutes. After the service over, my old friend asked me, "Are you feeling better now?" I said to her, "Well, umm, yes I feeling better now." But it was not true. I was not actually saved yet.

    Four days later, that night in my bedroom at my parent's house. I continued reading Revelation in the Bible. Revelation chapter 20 and 21 both are my favorite chapters of the book, it is talking about second coming and New Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth. I am eager looking forward to see them. But, Rev. 20:11-15 caused me scare do not want go to the lake of fire and miss New Jerusalem, new heaven, new earth, and also Jesus too. So, at 11 pm, I bow down and pray talking to Jesus in sign language. I asked Jesus to forgive all my sins, wash all my sins through his blood(I learned from confirmation on doctrines), ask Christ comes into my heart, and I told him, I do not want go to the lake of fire, and miss New Jerusalem, and I told him, I do not want to miss him. I prayed to Jesus for about 30 minutes. At 11:35 pm, I finished prayer. I was overjoy in my heart and go bed peaceful.

    Then, next 12 hours later, I took drive lincense test. I passed it, and received it 12 hours after my salvation.

    After my salvation, I didn't growing in the Lord, because no one discipleship me to growing in the Lord. Even, I was still Lutheran.

    I graudated Lahser High School in June 1989. I attend National Techincal Institute for the Deaf (N.T.I.D.) at the campus of Rochester Institute of Technology (R.I.T) in Rochester, NY in August 1988.

    One day, I met a student, and made new friend, now he is still my BEST friend [​IMG] , we still contract each other almost daily through AIM's or emails. He told me about baptist church have a deaf church, also have deaf pastor. I attend that baptist church is an independent fundamental baptist, and of course it is strongly KJVO. I learned lot of new things from Christians and deaf pastors in the Bible. I learned lot about salvation, rapture, tribulation, second coming, KJV, and many things etc. I learned that church is a heavily teaching on security salvation.

    Because, often, I heard from them at that church, saying, "I am a Bible believer", because they always use King James Version.

    I was used myself as KJVO before.

    Also, often, I heard them saying, "I am fundamentalist." I understand of that word means, it is foundation base upon God's Word with doctrines 100% .

    I thought independent fundamental baptists(ifb) are always telling the truth and with right doctrines.

    Myself was used believed in security salvation, KJVO, pretrib, premill.

    In year 1990, I attend Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Mich. I did learned lot from them. But, I was the only one deaf student at that hearing college. I was struggling with the classes, I did failed classes in the first semester. But, the next second and third semester classes, I improved lot. But, I was still not satisfy with them.

    I moved to Ohio in year 1992, because of to be trained to become missionary. One day, during summer of 1992, I visited deaf couple's house. We chatted lot of things from the Bible. That night, they asked me about the rapture timing. I told them, I believe rapture before tribulation. They told me, they believe rapture after tribulation. I was so shocked. Because I thought all ifb people believe in pretrib rapture. I did argued with them about rapture. They asked me to looking in 2 Thess. 2:1-3. So, I told them, "When I reading them, I will sign and I MUST agree and follow what God's Word saying." While I read and sign same time, I was so shocked of 2 Thess 2:3. Also, they asked me of Matt. 24:29-31. I told them, the same thing. When I read and sign same time. Matt. 24:31 hit me so hard. I was shocked. I told them, Matt. 24:31 reminds me of 1 Thess. 4:17 are fit same with that verse. I told them, I am going home and will study on rapture timing in the Bible, also books too, I will visit their house and telling them what I have learning. The next day, I spend so many hours study on rapture timing in the Bible, and looking at many commentaries, to comparing with them with Bible, what they saying on rapture. I did read Dr. John R. Rice's commentary on rapture. I disagree with Dr. Rice's intepreting on rapture.

    I realized that I have seen many commentaries have different views and intepreting the verses, are not fit with the verses in the Bible, what the verses actually saying.

    So, I already determined to leave pretrib camp, and follow the Bible 100%. Since in that year 1992, to now, I never return back to my former old belief of pretrib rapture, because I already set my own defend of my beliefs base upon God's Wo4rd, what it saying rather than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

    That was my first step as left from my first former beliefs on rapture timing.

    But, the only one thing that bother me is Revelation 13:9-18; & Rev. 14:9-11 warn us about received the mark of the beast will go to everlasting fire, that are against security salvation.

    But, I was still believe in security salvation for a long time, at the same time, I only believe two things that a Christian might lose salvation: received the mark, and take word out of the Bible, take person's name out the book of life(Rev. 22:19).

    Later, in year 2000, I started to study on millennium in the Bible. I did study on them much deeper. The more, these verses caused me into trouble, it caused me become into pan-mill for a while within a year. Then, I became amill in year 2001 completed.

    In year 2001, I started to study on salvation issue more seriously, because Matt. 25:14-30 caused me into trouble conflict with security salvation. So, I started to digging more deeper on God's Word about salvation. The more I learned from the Bible is very clearly teaching conditional salvation. Last year, I determined left osas or security salvation camp. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

    I am surprised, and very disappoint with ifb pastors, that they did not follow the Bible correctly. I cannot understand why so many ifb pastors seem not accept the clear facts from the Bible on conditional salvation. I guess many of them seem avoid passages on conditional warnings. The fact, It is very, very rarely for me to hear from any ifb pastor preaching on Matt. 25:30. I cannot understand why, so many ifb pastors avoid Matt. 25:30.

    My guess, many ifb churches hold security salvation, pretribulation rapture, the reason of what they are teaching on them, because I think the purpose of their teaching is to comfort them. Apostle Paul warns us in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 say, "For the time will come when they will NOT endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall TURN AWAY their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

    I noticed many ifb building churches are big and fancy everywhere across America. I believe they are growing so fast, because of easy believism, method of soul winning, teaching on security salvation, to make them feel comfortable, and of course, teaching on tithes too. Go ahead you might not agree with me about tithes.

    I fear, that many baptists are heading toward apostasy already according 2 Tim. 4:3-4.

    I learned, that baptists are the second largest religion in America, behind only Catholic.

    I believe there is the reason why there are so many baptists in America are so big and popular, because of easy believism, teaching on security salvation.

    Look, I am so proud being myself as baptist. I am a truly baptist, because I believe in baptized under the water 100% full, not sprinkling water according what the Bible teaching us.

    I believe, many hundreds of years ago, many baptists were very strong spiritual, and moral life too, also endured sound doctrines. But, not same as comparing of today's baptists. I am so really disappoint with ifb people, that they seem not follow the Bible correctly. Many ifb people need return back to the old path or old fashion preaching again.

    I believe America's moral value are decling so fast, also, the spiritual in America are decling so fast, thanked to churches for teaching on security salvation.

    We need back to God's Word and sticky with them, rather than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    DeafPosttrib,

    Some years ago I was an evolutionary biologist and I was downtown in a large city and four teenagers from an Assembly of God church invited me to a youth service. They told me that there would be a time of sharing and I got the impression that I would be able to share why I believed in evolution. Therefore I decided to go there with them, but the time of sharing turned out to be a time of testimonies by kids in the youth group. That was my first encounter with Christian youth and I really liked the kids, but I did not believe that Jesus was a real person.

    During this time I started going to a Baptist coffee house that had Bible studies five nights a week, followed by a time of fellowship where I could share my beliefs and learn about theirs. But I refused to accept Christ as my savior because I didn’t believe in Him at all.

    This continued for a period of a few months and many people were praying for me to be saved. A friend talked me into answering the alter call at the Assembly of God church one Sunday night and I very reluctantly did so. God saved me and I saw my life rapidly changing. I found that I had an unquenchable thirst for the word of God and I spent my free time going to the Assembly of God church and the Baptist coffee house and reading my Bible.

    The Assembly of God church taught conditional security, but they did not make a big deal out of it. The Baptist coffee house, however, taught eternal security and made a VERY BIG DEAL out of it. I wanted to know who was right, so I prayed earnestly, everyday, for God to teach me His word and protect me from error. I also read and studied the Bible every day and I saw that there were several passages in the Bible that explicitly taught conditional security and other passages in the Bible that seemed to teach eternal security. I studied both groups of passages and prayed over them and realized that those passages that expressly teach conditional security had to be true, and that I was misunderstanding those passages in the Bible that “seemed” to teach eternal security.

    At about this time, I met a young Christian man like myself, but he believed in the post-trib rapture. I told him that he was wrong and he asked me what verses in the Bible I based my statement on. I couldn’t remember right off hand where or what the verses were, but I knew that they were there and I told him so. We agreed that I would go home and study the subject and that we would meet the following evening to discuss the verses that I found.

    My Assembly of God Pastor’s wife used the Scofield Reference Bible, and since we had become close friends, I had purchased a Scofield Reference Bible and was using it for my study Bible as well as my Bible for devotional reading. So that night when I got home from my encounter with the young Christian man who was post-trib, I used that Bible to help me locate the verses that prove the pre-trib rapture. However, the more verses that I read, and the more I studied them, the more I realized that the verses that Scofield used to prove that doctrine did not prove it at all. I really wanted to find some verses to prove to the young man that I was right, so I prayed for God to help me.

    Well, God did help me, but He answered the prayer that I had been praying everyday, for Him to teach me His truths, and to protect me from error. And He showed me very clearly, beyond any doubt at all, that the pre-trib rapture was a false doctrine. I was a new Christian, and the realization that my pastor taught a false doctrine was quite unsettling and I prayed for God to help me with the questions that began to flood my mind. And as I prayed, God reminded me of a book that I had that was an analysis of the statement of faith of the Assemblies of God. Therefore I read the chapters on the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennial Reign of Christ, the Final Judgment, and the New Heavens and the New Earth, but they said nothing at all about the timing of the rapture in reference to the Great Tribulation. I continued to pray that God would help me, and I then noticed an Appendix in the back of the book entitled: “The Time of the Rapture.”

    I read the appendix and it said that some pastors in the Assemblies of God teach that the rapture will occur after the tribulation but that the General Presbyters of the Assemblies of God “disapprove any of our ministers teaching that the church must go through the tribulation.” Therefore I knew that although my pastor was teaching a false doctrine, other pastors in my denomination had learned the same truth that I had, and that I had learned the doctrine from God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in studying the Bible rather than in some book.

    Since that time, more than 30 years ago, I have studied the history of both the doctrine of eternal security and the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture to learn for myself where these false doctrines came from. I learned that the doctrine of eternal security evolved rapidly in the 16th century and that the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture dates back only to the first half of the 19th century, about 1826.

    Our deaf brother may not be able to hear the voice of men, but he has heard the voice of God [​IMG] . He and I both learned the truth because we actively sought the truth, and we sought it diligently in the Bible.

    I also came to realize that the teaching of the Assemblies of God on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is incorrect in one important detail, but that is a another story in and of itself, and I left the Assemblies of God and I am now a Baptist. Nonetheless, much of the teaching of the Assemblies of God regarding the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is very real and something that only a small fraction of Baptists have experienced and accepted as being true.

    The best way that I know of to learn the truth in the Bible is to pray everyday for God to teach you the truth and protect you from error, and to diligently study the Bible for yourself. Learning Hebrew and Greek is a plus, studying commentaries and theologies are a plus, going to a church pastored by very well educated and Godly man is a plus, but they are only aids to the fundamentals of much prayer and time in the word of God.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Craig,

    I realized, that the security salvation doctrine depends on pretrib rapture so heavily.

    Many baptist(ifb) churches always depend on both security salvation and pretrib rapture. In other word, they saying, security salvation cannot separate from pretrib rapture.

    Later, I more realized that they depend on security salvation doctrine relates with pretrib rapture so heavily, because they easily notice the book of Revelation talking about conditional warnings during tribulation period lot. Because of warning about receiving the mark of the beast. They aware of Revelation 13:9-18; & 14:9-11 are a very clear teaching on conditional warning. So, that why, they saying Tribulation period is not for us, because we will be gone anyway. Also, teaching on pretrib rapture is to comforting them by itching their ears.

    I rather follow what the Bible than what men saying.

    By the way, I enjoy reading your testimony. God is so good to you! [​IMG]

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Craigbythesea: "However, the more verses that I read, and the more I studied them, the more I realized that the verses that Scofield used to prove that doctrine did not prove it at all."

    Thank you for your testimony, Brother Craigbythesea.
    Hard to ever argue with a testimony [​IMG]

    I also don't use Schofield's "proof" of the pretribulation
    rapture. The three main verses that i use for proving
    the pretribulation rapture where NOT seen as
    being pretrib by Schofield.

    DeafPosttrib: "I realized, that the security salvation doctrine depends on pretrib rapture so heavily."

    Actually it is the other way around,
    the pretribulation rapture is a part of the doctrine of
    the Security of the Believer.
    The two are natural results of the Nature of God
    (AKA: "Godhead"). I really cannot see a God who will
    send a Billion Christians into the torture chamber where
    99.99% will fail so He can fry them for eternity in hell.
    It just ain't like God - even athiests see this, why
    cannot those who bought into the postrib rapture ONLY
    theory (which is isolated from all other doctrines) and
    got sold a bill of good called "conditinal salvation"
    (which denies the nature of God) -- why can't these
    people see the truth when even athiests see that
    God won't do that?
     
  8. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Hi Ed [​IMG] ! Long time; no see :( !

    Your philosophy is mind-boggling :confused: ! ‘Those who do not believe in God believe that God would not treat Christians that way.’ :D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Dear brother [​IMG] ,

    I also very much enjoyed reading your testimony [​IMG] . It is truly a blessing from God that we can become friends via microchips :cool: and edify one another [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] .

    [​IMG]
     
  10. williemakeit

    williemakeit
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    Excellent posts, guys! Have enjoyed reading the thread. In a nutshell, there is only one truth--that being Jesus--, so I must go to the source for truth. We cannot rely on anyone (or any denomination) to lead us to the truth. It is a personal journey. It would be interesting to know the percentage of bible-studying, praying Christians that agree 100% with every stance or position taken by their own local church (fundamentals of the faith aside).
     
  11. rufus

    rufus
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    "Lot of disscussion on salvation. Just wish I could find someone who knew the truth for sure."

    The Bible is "right!" Study it!

    Rufus
     
  12. baptisttg

    baptisttg
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    It all comes down to this one thing. Religion teaches that one must do something (go to church, pray, give money, etc...) in order to stem God's wrath for sins. The Bible teaches that Jesus took the wrath of God upon Himself (being made sin for us) so that those who believe would not have. All religions fall into the first catagory whether they be Muslim, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholic, and even Baptist. The reason I say this is because religion is a PERSONAL THING. Even in Baptist churches there are people, probably many, that are still trying to appease God in some way. This is why being a Baptist does not save anyone from their sins. However, salvation is personal, too. One must come to the point that they realize that God is satisfied with the offering Christ gave upon the cross. The "work" that appeases God's wrath has been done by Jesus. We simply believe and rest from our works.
     
  13. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill
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    Dear Deafpostrib &Craigbythesea,
    I read your testimonies and appreciate them very much. I am pre-trib,security of the believer in my theology.
    Both of you aggravate me somewhat with your posttrib insecurity of the believer theology.

    That being said is'nt it great how good God is?These things are not such as fellowship should be broken or that we should become angry or upset with each other.
    I do appreciate both of you better now having read your testimony.


    Your Brothr in Christ Jesus,
    Plain old Bill
     
  14. superdave

    superdave
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    I know it was anecdotal, so I won't hammer you for it, but I just wanted to go on the record for one very growing IFB church in the greater Detroit Area that teaches none of the listed teachings (except for perseverance of the Saints) and is one of the most Word-centered ministries I have been a part of.

    There are some who call what they have salvation, but have a distorted view of their own role in salvation, or the addition of extra teaching that perverts the gospel.

    I am concerned about those who would hold to the ability to lose salvation. It seems to me that that doctrine contradicts the very nature of our faith in Christ. either its all in him, or its a works based heresy.

    That being said, I also have concerns about those who are in the 123 pray after me crowd. I am certain that many who professed Christ at some point in their life will have to stand there and explain how they can expect to be saved when there was never any change in their life. There is a balance there somewhere.
     

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