Who limits the attonement?

BBob; Sign up is meant to add some "Shock, or attention getter" to it, right? How can "believe" mean "sign up"???....

James; It is man that controls the outcome not God

BBob; Not true, God bestows the atonement upon the believer and God withholds the atonement from the unbeliever, in all of His Sovereignity.

BBob,

 

Probably because I believe that whole world means all nations and races of men. I do not see it as all men inclusively.

 

I think Allan asked this before, and it is a good point, can you supply where John used "whole world" in any of his letters to mean all nations and races of men?

 

Gill's commentary.

1Jo 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins,.... For the sins of us who now believe, and are Jews:

and not for ours only; but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:

but also for the sins of the whole world; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles עלמא, "the world"; and כל העולם, "the whole world"; and אומות העולם, "the nations of the world" (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that אין להן כפרה, "there is no propitiation for them" (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),

"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" went after him;''

which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,

"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''

which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),

"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''

where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when

"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), כולי עלמא, "the whole world" stood up before him;''

that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),

"when a great man makes a mourning, כולי עלמא, "the whole world" come to honour him;''

i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, כולי עלמא לא פליגי, "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent (s); כולי עלמא סברי, "the whole world" are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1Jo_2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for Joh_17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation; see Gill on Rom_3:25. The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say (w) repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous (x); sometimes incense (y); sometimes the priests' garments (z); sometimes it is the day of atonement (a); and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers (b), that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; See Gill on 1Jo_4:10.

(l) Jarchi in Isa. liii. 5. (m) T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2. (n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2. (p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2. (q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2. (r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. (s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2. (t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1. (u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16. (w) Zohar in Lev. fol. 29. 1. (x) Ib. fol. 24. 1. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 38. 2. (y) T. Bab. Zebachim, fol. 88. 2. & Erachin, fol. 16. 1. (z) T. Bab. Zebachim, ib. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 44. 2. (a) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 87. 1. & T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 45. 2, 3. (b) Seder Tephillot, fol. 41. 1. Ed. Amsterd.

 

I'll come back to this later since I have a family night to get to.

But I will say that though Gill had a great theological mind on many things and on others, failed. But it being about Jews and Gentiles STILL doesn't change what John ment when using the phrase 'whole world'. He had a specific meaning for THAT phrase and if one would simply take 3 mins to look them up, one would see that according to JOHN, it does not mean ALL Mankind without exception but ALL sinful and wicked men of the World both Jew and Gentile. Remember, John defines the words by the context with which it is used and if one will look, they will see that the context surrounding this phrase 'whole world' is specifically defined repeatedly.

What the hey, I put it here anyway:

 

Wow! You jumped to a LARGE conclusion there, LT! Nowhere does THAT verse say "born."

So let me ask you --- where does man bear this sin at birth? In his soul? his body? his spirit? See --- he is dead in NONE of these! He just got born is his soul. His spirit is not old enough to know sin or law. The body is surely not dead either.

Is UNDER the curse. Are you trying to say that procreation is a curse? Surely not! Surely "of such is the kingdom of God," LT.

My Bible says Adam still suggests "federal headship" though it is a human term.

You're drivin' too fast, here, without a good map of where you are going.

What is the "seed of death?" What is "sin nature?" When Adam was cast from the Garden, what new nature that was in him was sparked? (BTW, I agree that Adam wasn't tempted but rather ate to save Eve).

It's called "survival instinct," LT. It leads each and every one of us into sin. That is why it is called sin NATURE. It is natural -- it is reactive to the "curse" -- it does NOT appear as sin until we comprehend sin as wrong (Ezek 18:20).

We are born -- not with sin guilt -- but with sin nature, our innate, practical defense against the curse and death. But when "needs" become "wants" (the Bible calls these "lusts") we all trrespass against God and others.

skypair



See the study below on Romans 5:12-17:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/PDF Files/Romans/Romans 44.pdf[/QUOTE]

 

Allan, this is exactly what Gill points out. When the jews talked of the world, or whole world, they were talking of the gentiles.

 

Exactly, Christ died not only for the sins of the Jews, but also for ALL the Gentile People as well.

 

Yes, agreed, but when you say all...... you mean all inclusively. When I say all, I mean all who will believe out of all nations and races of men... Jew and Gentile.
The good doctor was making a case for Christ's death propitiating God for all men inclusively, then he turned around and said for those "repentant sinners." I simply called him on that... and asked why did you make a case for all men inclusively, then turn around and say it was for "repentent sinners?"
We both know that you believe in general attonement and I believe in particular attonement. We can argue the point till we are blue in the face, and I doubt we will change each others minds..... :thumbs:
I was simply asking the good doctor why he did that... to which he has circled, and circled, and circled......... on and on.

 

I did not respond to your question because I had already answered it and you apparantly did not want to see it.

 

And yes, I saw your answer and responded to it. I could not go back and edit my mistake on God being propitiated...... but I think you understood exactly what I meant. Quit dodging the question and just go back and read my responses...... then respond to them. That is if you desire to do so. Don't allow my user name to get under your skin... we all know you think Calvinists are heretical.......

 

So you believe in conditional election, i.e. repentance/faith?

Second, so you believe His propitiation was for all men exclusively?

 

That is not true. I believe limited atonement is heretical and I believe pretemporal reprobation is heretical. I can tolerate the other positions, but I would not consider them to be heretical.

 

No
No.........................

 

Oh..... so only 5 point Calvinists are partly heretical?

 

Do you always answer a question with a question? This is what I mean by "would you rather dance" on the other thread.