Who rules the earth and when you die?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by npetreley, Jul 15, 2004.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Who is the ruler (god/God) of this earth today? God or satan?

    2. Do you believe there is a time appointed by God as to when you will die (physically - for the brethren, sleep)?

    3. If you believe there is a God-appointed time for you to die/sleep, then can a man with free will change that fate? Could a murderer choose of his own free will to kill you before your time? Could you make a decision of your own free will, such as to walk too close to the edge of the Grand Canyon, and fall to your death ahead of your appointed time? Is it possible?
     
  2. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    No takers on these simple questions?
     
  3. KayDee

    KayDee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Satan is the ruler - John 14:30,2 Cor 4:4, Eph 6:12

    2. Yes, there is a time appointed for us to die.
    Psalms 139:16

    3. No a man of his own free will can not change it - if you die in an accident, illness, by man's hands, God ordained it that way.

    Do I get an A? [​IMG]
     
  4. Gershom

    Gershom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    No. You didn't give a reference for number 3.
     
  5. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I'd score your answers at 66%, myself. ;)

    Taken alone, John 14:30 and 2 Cor 4:4 are pretty convincing that satan is the ruler of this world.

    But I confess that question 1 was a trick question. I should have asked:

    1. Who is sovereign over this world, or the ultimate ruler of this world?

    Would you have changed your answer if I had asked it that way? I hope so! Men are born voluntary slaves to satan, thereby making him their ruler, so in one sense it is true that satan is the "ruler" of the fallen world.

    But satan cannot be said to be sovereign over the world.

    The book of Job clearly demonstrates this. Satan could do no more to Job than God permitted. Jesus also said to Peter that satan had asked to sift Peter as wheat. Sovereign rulers don't ask permission, they do as they please.

    Finally, if satan is the sovereign ruler of the world, that would contradict your answers to 2 and 3. If satan truly ruled the world, then he could thwart God's appointed times for men to die by getting one of his servants to kill men before their time.

    Okay, assuming everyone is comfortable with these answers (say so if you're not), then I have a follow-up question:

    1. How does it make you feel that, because God is sovereign, you CANNOT POSSIBLY die before your time due to the free will of man (yours or another's)?
     
  6. psr.2

    psr.2
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    quote;
    But I confess that question 1 was a trick question. I should have asked:

    1. Who is sovereign over this world, or the ultimate ruler of this world?

    The problem with that question is that "sovereign" nor "ultimate" appear in the scripture.
    You are bulding your questions on sinking sand to prove your doctrine.

    The bible says if a person obeys their parents it could make their days longer on the earth. It also says if a person takes of the Lord's table unworthily they could die prematurely.
    The bible says for the child of God who is living a life of sin that the point can come where God will call that child home early.

    The truth is that sovereign does not appear in the bible and free will does. That bothers calvinist doesn't it?
     
  7. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  8. Gershom

    Gershom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    Monergist,

    References, man. I am interested in this discussion and would like some references from every side.
     
  9. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've got to get back to work now. I'll post some references for you a little later.
     
  10. KayDee

    KayDee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    npetrely

    Yes, I surely do believe in the sovreignty of God - in everything!!! But as you said, that is not the way you asked the question. So where is my A? :confused:

    No. You didn't give a reference for number 3.

    God is sovereign even over the calamity of man. It'll take me some time to find the verses but I will.

    PSR.2 said The truth is that sovereign does not appear in the bible and free will does. That bothers calvinist doesn't it?

    Nope not at all becuase it is not true. In the KJV it may not be there in the Enlish but it is in the NASB. 1 Tim 6:15, Psalm 103:19. The translators just used different words such as potentate & kingdom. A word study will verify this. As far as free will is concerned, we all have free will so the acutual words or the idea of free will being in the Bible is no problem. Would you mind sharing the Scripture you're using?

    1. How does it make you feel that, because God is sovereign, you CANNOT POSSIBLY die before your time due to the free will of man (yours or another's)?

    It is very reassuring to know God is in control and I can rest in the fact that nothing will happen to me or mine outside of His will.
     
  11. KayDee

    KayDee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gershom

    Verses for answer #3:

    Isa 45:6,7
    1 Sam 2:6-8
    Deut 32:39
    Is 14:24, 27
     
  12. KayDee

    KayDee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    psr.2
    It seems to me God would be aware of these things happening and already has them figured in His time table.

    Do you believe in God's sovreignty? Of course, that's one of those things that can only be answered yes or no....there's no in between. God can't be a little bit sovereign.
     
  13. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. God is sovereign.

    Isaiah 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, "My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure

    Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

    Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

    Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts has purposed, And who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, And who will turn it back?"

    Job 23:13 "But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does.

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

    Hebrews 1:3 [God's Son] who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power

    ----------------------------------

    1a. God is sovereign over what man DOES, no matter what man wants to do in his heart.

    Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way,But the LORD directs his steps.

    Psalm 33:10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. 11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

    ----------------------------------

    1b. When it pleases Him to do so, God not only asserts control over what man does, but even takes control of what man WANTS to do.

    Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

    Ezra 6:22b ...for the LORD made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.

    22 ...the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation... 4 All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah.

    ----------------------------------

    1c. God is sovereign even over the inanimate objects and creatures of the world. He decides when it does and does not rain. He commanded ravens to feed Elija. He commanded a great fish to swallow Jonah and vomit him back up on dry land. Everything is subject to God's sovereign control. Not even satan can lay a hand on a man on earth without God's permission.

    ----------------------------------

    2. God is sovereign over when we live, how we live, where we live, what we do, and when we die.

    Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

    Acts 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings

    Job 14:1 "Man who is born of woman Is of few days and full of trouble. [...] Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.

    Ecclesiastes 7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, But in the day of adversity consider: Surely God has appointed the one as well as the other, So that man can find out nothing that will come after him.

    Job 20:13 "But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. 14 For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such things are with Him.

    Isaiah 44:6 ..."I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. 7 And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. 8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?

    -------------------------

    God is sovereign.
     
  14. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry - you get an automatic A+ for tolerating my trick question! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. KayDee

    KayDee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    npreterly

    Aw, gee, thanks

    Thank you for the verses, too.
     
  16. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is very reassuring to know God is in control and I can rest in the fact that nothing will happen to me or mine outside of His will.</font>[/QUOTE]This was the point of this thread. God's sovereignty is undeniable. The above verses show that God governs all things -- He has declared the end from the beginning and nothing shall change it. He controls the hearts of kings, the steps of men no matter what their hearts desire, the length of our lives, prosperity and calamity, the actions of animals, the life of animals (not even a sparrow falls to the ground APART FROM HIS WILL), the weather (peace, be still!), and even upholds us at every moment with His word so that we can take our next breath. And He does this all according to His good pleasure, and that ONLY.

    And since we know that God is good, it doesn't matter what befalls us from one moment to the next, because if everything is ordained for His good pleasure, then no matter how bad something appears to us humans, we KNOW it must be good according to His good pleasure.

    What marvelous comfort it is to be aware that God is sovereign over everything! Jesus tells us not to fear, worry or be anxious, yet who is able to comply of his own will? Nobody. Why? Because it is so contrary to our human nature to acknowledge that God is sovereign. But that's precisely why Jesus, in the midst of telling people not to fear or worry, He explains that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the Father's will.

    And which of God's promises could we possibly trust if God is not absolutely sovereign? If anyone can defy God's will, then we can trust nothing of what God says. Upon what foundation could faith be built except the sovereignty of God?

    ------------

    Now the bottom line. It should be self-evident that it is a contradiction in terms to say it is God's sovereign choice to give man the responsibility of deciding his own fate for eternity according to man's free will. As you said correctly, God can not be "a little bit sovereign". But for the sake of argument, allow me to assume this to be the case.

    Let me ask Arminians -- at least those who acknowledge God's sovereignty in all things except man's salvation -- where they find the comfort in their soteriology?

    God is sovereign over the waves, the wind, the hearts of kings, nations, the number of days we live, and God even determines beforehand the number of hairs on your head, and it is only by His will that a sparrow falls to the ground.

    Yet this same "loving" God leaves the decision to FALLEN man as to where he will spend eternity!? We're talking about men who struggle with their sinful nature even AFTER they are saved! I can't help but wonder, is their god an idiot or just a member of PETA who cares more about the lives of whales and sparrows than He does the lives of men?
     
  17. KayDee

    KayDee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    npetreley

    To God be the glory!! You’ve made me want to shout. How can anyone hear/read about His sovereignty and not want to praise Him.

    I wonder if it is confusing to Arminians when we say we don’t have free will. I hope they understand we believe all the verses that convey the responsibility of man. We do make the decision to trust Christ, and only Christ, according to our free will, but, we can only make that decision according to our nature – which God has regenerated. Otherwise, our response can only be negative. 1 Cor 2:14
     
  18. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutely. I think the Arminian problem is complex, bit I do think it primarily comes down to pride, and the sinful nature rearing its ugly head -- we still want to be gods of our own destiny.

    I don't mean to speak for all Arminians or former believers in free will, but as one who used to believe that we were saved by a free-will choice, I can state from experience what my stumbling blocks were:

    1. Pride. I knew I couldn't take credit for earning my salvation through works, but it made me feel special knowing that, given the choice, I "made the right choice". There had to be something about ME that made me better than those who made the WRONG choice. God's sovereignty in salvation robs us entirely of that sense of pride, and forces us to face the fact that we can truly point to the unsaved and say, "There but for the grace of God, go I." The humility imposed by God's sovereignty is incredibly liberating once you get there, but it's hard to make that step.

    2. Human philosophy. I once, too, believed that "responsibility" required "ability". According to that human philosophical statement, it stands to reason that if we are to be held responsible for accepting or rejecting Christ, we must be able to respond. That, of course, is circular reasoning, since the only way to get to that argument is to start by assuming we are all offered salvation, and we have the ability to choose to believe or not believe. So it only "proves" free will by first assuming it first, and then applying human logic rather than God's wisdom to the result.

    Anyway, we are responsible for being willfully sinful, and we are responsible as Christians to love and honor God and obey His commandments. But the ABILITY comes from Him, not from within.

    3. Misdirected sense of justice. Despite what the Bill of Right says, I no longer hold this truth to be self-evident that we are all created equal (except perhaps equally depraved). God creates what and whom He wishes to create according to His own good pleasure, and He is not obliged to get my approval based on my (former) sense of equality.

    4. Inability to recognize that God is God, and despite what I might have said at the time, I believed God would be the kind of God I imagined Him to be according to my private standards of fairness, justice, love, etc. How foolish I was!!
     
  19. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, it looks like you just traded one set of philosophies for another
    1)believeing God chose you over others is less proud.
    2)of course, response ability is not ability. God is just in the business of trapping people in a helpless state after pronouncing guilt on them.
    3)God'd good pleasure is to do #1 and 2 contrary to what many scriptures say, and just because he "Can" do something, He necessarily does it.
    4)If we think God to live according to the standards of justice, fairness, love, etc.He has set for us, and instilled in our conscience, then He must really do the diametric opposite of those things.
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the remark above about "their god" being an "idiot" is totally uncalled for. Could you refrain from this type of language please? I was reading throught this thread and that kind of remark causes me not to want to enter the dialogue.
     

Share This Page

Loading...