WHO told you that you were naked?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Star, Jun 27, 2002.

  1. Star

    Star
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    To me "nakedness" symbolizes "sin" can anyone help me in the way of refute on that thought according to scripture? This is how I am seeing "nakedness" in the garden. Not at all seeing this in physical sense but in the spiritual.

    I realize they were naked before they ate of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil but only aware that they were naked after they ate.

    Thanks for any help you can give me
    In Him Kim
     
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Star the first article in the TULIP doctrine is the doctrine of Total Depravity! What this means that when Adam ate of the forbidden fruit he plunged him and all his posterity into Sin!... He being the federal head so we are all in our nakedness. Not only did Adam see his natural nakedness but he also saw his spiritual nakedness. He can do nothing because of his nakedness to grant grace to him because he is naked and unable of himself seeing he broke Gods Law. If some on here could see how amazing, Amazing Grace really is then they could truly understand how naked they really are.

    14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

    18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    The Lord plainly told those Laodiceans that they were naked among other things and didn't need to buy natural but spiritual clothes to cloth them... What eyesalve did the Lord recommend so they could see?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  3. Star

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    Brother Glen,

    I just wrote you a long response and I lost my reply in cyberspace. In short though, in view of how Job speaks of what Adam was hiding I'm attributing Adam hiding his nakedness on equal footing as transgressions. When He covered himself in the garden it is written that he covered his nakeness but in Job its seen as covering his transgressions.

    So knowing He was naked before he ate then "aware" of his nakedness after he ate I'm wondering if nakedness itself is the sin nature itself and the awareness of it the realization of what that nature just did so to speak... I hope I worded that right, I'm fried from the last post I lost sigh...

    We know that sin is afforded by the commandment and the first "shalt not" appears in the garden. You know that I believe the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a type of the law to come at Siani, though thats probrobly another thread and has been in the past what I'm looking for is the use of the word nakedness as sin nature... is there any biblical no no to procede in that direction?

    In Him Kim [​IMG]
     
  4. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but I will take a shot.

    2 verses from Matthew seem to say we should clothe orselves, because of our thoughts alone.
    Matthew 5:28, 15:19

    Nakedness is compared with immorality here...
    Genesis 9:22&23
    Exodus 32:5&6,25
    Leviticus 18:6-19,20:11-21
    Habakuk 2:15

    Nakedness is called shameful here...
    Isaiah 47:3
    Ezekiel 23:18
    Revelation 3:18 (one of my all-time favorite verses).

    I have posted before on this subject. Who tells babies they are naked ? Any parent will tell you that at some point, a child will try to hide their nakedness from the parent. Why ? How do they know it's wrong ? Once Adam bit the fruit, they both knew they were naked. But why after Eve bit, did she not realize ? Only after Adam ate, does the bible say they knew they were naked. It's a very minor point. It doesn't look like they were together when the serpent tempted Eve. Did Eve bring the fruit to Adam, who maybe was taking a nap somewhere ? Was he right beside her & didn't hear the snake ?

    Anyhoo...I do believe the Bible shows us nakedness in a negative light.
     
  5. John the Revelator

    John the Revelator
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    I think nakedness is the shame of sin and not the actual sin. Just thinking out loud.

    John
     
  6. Star

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    Thank you Mr. Curtis, I appreciate your input here, I often have wondered why God did not wait till Eve was made to issue the command, "Thou shalt not eat"? Looks like He told Adam alone and causes me to wonder why He did not bring forth both before the command was issued. Thats just something that sits in the back of my mind if you ever had one of those...

    In Him Kim
     
  7. Star

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    I think nakedness is the shame of sin and not the actual sin. Just thinking out loud.

    John I can definately see what you have posted, keep thinking aloud :D

    Being "naked" is seen both before and after here and its this I desire to reconcile for a better understanding. Are the scriptures clear that Adams nakedness was his sinful nature before he ate from this tree? Then if that tree was a type of the Law we could indeed reconcile why God issued the command not to eat of the fruit of that tree because that tree (being the law) would only make one aware of their nature... Hmmmm I don't know, still thinking on this. The Law itself made them conscious of sin, the tree made them consciious of their nakedness Job calls transgressions equating both nakedness with sin, yet at the same time before anything happened even before they ate nakedness was present. What a brain teaser lol!

    There is a curse issued at this time in its "type" and a curse then which followed after the law. I have alot of peices which I am satisfied in seeing but there are loose strings surrounding the train of thought I'd like to reconcile.

    WHO told you that you were naked has come back to me and provoked me to thought once again, I can't tell you how many times it has... The question keeps coming up in my mind over and over as if there is more to understand concerning this.

    Whats so bad in knowing the truth about yourself? Your naked you are right? Someone just informed you what tells us that we are? I thought it was not "who" but "what" but God asks "who" in connection to the "what".

    So God makes them coverings for their nakedness, for naked we come and naked we go, the Lord gives the coverings and Jesus takes them away here.

    If I had not spoken to them they would have NOT had sin but now they have "no cloke" for their sin.

    That's interesting, if HE had NOT spoken to them they would have not had sin?

    Though "coverings" are as a garment but "cloke" is a covering of pretence, I don't believe they are the same here. I definately have some further looking into to do.

    John, think aloud more often its helpful ;)

    Thanks so much

    In Him Kim
     
  8. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene
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    One thing I've always wondered about - what's the sin in being naked when the only other human being around is your wedded spouse? Could it be that Adam's now fallen nature caused him to be mistaken as to what is and is not to be ashamed of?
     
  9. Me2

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    Adam And Eve Were Enraptured By The Glory Of God..
    They Were Part Of The Glory of God
    In Need or, Desire of want of, Nothing
    Adam And Eve Were Not Aware That Clothes Were An Option

    Our Vantage Point Describes Creation Without the Knowledge of How It Came To Be Or Why..except for the tree..Which God Tells Them That They Cant Obtain By Their Own Efforts.

    After The Act Of Diobedience.. Adam Still Held Onto A Partial Belief of God..The Law
    Failure To Meet The Law Brings Sin
    Sin Brings Seperation
    Seperation Brings Wrath
    Wrath Brings Self Awareness of Control ...or Repentence.
    Self Awareness of Control Brings Knowledge of Failure of Perfection of Being God
    Knowledge of Failure of Perfection of Being God Brings Guilt
    Guilt Brings Shame

    Thats Being Naked..In Shame, Adam Hides From God ....And Eve
    God Provides Them A Blood Sacrifice...An Atonement

    Me2
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Chemnitz

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    Something that one of my hebrew professors pointed out is that the hebrew word for craftiness is similar in pronounciation of the word for nakedness. So he thought it was rather funny that they wanted to be crafty like the serpent but found out they were naked.

    I would say that the sin is not nakedness rather a product of the sin.

    [ June 28, 2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]
     
  11. John the Revelator

    John the Revelator
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    My thinking out loud has caused me to feel so, so naked.

    But seriously, I think they needed garments and this was like the offering of sacrifices for sins prior to Christ dying for our sins.

    John
     
  12. Star

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    Thank you Me2, Chemnitz and John,

    Me2, if they were enraptured by the glory of God or part of it I could definately see your point in fact He is our Shepherd we shall not want, yet Eve saw something of that tree to be "desirous of". I thought it pretty noble in one sense that she desired to be "like God" who is Holy Just and good, immitation is the highest source of flattery right? In fact we should be immitators of Christ. Thats why I'm wondering about their nakedness prior to eating of the tree what was true prior was only made known to them only after eating.

    Also (if that tree started the whole problem or the downward spin of humanity) why (if others who think it is NOT the law) is there still nothing in the law concerning it? Just having fun with that thought.... [​IMG]

    But I see what your saying Me2, you gave me some things to think on but I'm still back at the begining on this unless I'm missing it somewhere, but its nice to know that others "ponder these things" wondering... "yeah... I wish I knew exactly without doubt what this is about", the honesty is refreshing here.

    Chemnitz

    I would like to hear more on this nakedness deal along with the crafty thing... That was elloquent of me huh? lol!

    You said that sin is not nakedness rather a product of sin I'm right with you, but how does relate to "before" disobedience? I see what your saying on the "after part" but its the "before" I need to understand, this is what I'm looking for here. Naked was a fact in scripture, them becoming aware of it another, and God drawing to their attention that they have realized this and asking them who told them that makes me REALLY want to know. lol!

    John.... You lost me pal, that went right over my head and is tangled in my pony tail :D (well... its not really a pony tail, it looks like a broccoli tree on the top of my head)

    Sorry, I'm a bit giddy at the moment for reasons beyond me :D

    In Him Kim
     
  13. Star

    Star
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    Chemnitz,

    On second thought, still leaning back on Job he equates nakedness with transgressions. The nakedness prior to the disobedience could have been the nature of sin (shown as nakedness) before it was afforded by the actual act itself. The act itself (of sinning according to its nature) is then "awareness" of its own nature, so nakedness is seen in both pictures for a purpose of understanding that God knew this would have happened all along?

    They were not hiding their nakedness (the nature itself) prior but after their nature engaged in itself they knew themselves? Just flying thoughts around, still nothing real solid here on my side. But I do love when the wheels start turning lol!

    In Him Kim
     
  14. Me2

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    Hello,
    Im Drawn To Noticing Gen 2:24
    Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh..

    Jesus Used This As A Parable..There Are A Lot Of References to This Idea From God To Man..
    Described As A Mystery In the New Testament..
    Jesus Calls The Church His Bride... and again in other places Christ Body..or husbands Keeping Their Wives Pure..Keeping The Body Spotless and Blameless.

    and its first mentioned in Genesis before the fall...

    My Take On This Is That Adam Blinked...Eve Got Away From Him and Through ignorance (imho) Eve Was Drawn To The Tree..
    I Also Believe When Adam Found Out about It, He discoveres that He Had Failed To Keep His Responsibilities Towards Her of Keeping Her Pure before God.

    Ive Got This Hunch that Adam Gave Up The World For Eve as his punishment for failing to keep her unspotted. That He Was Willing To Give Up What Was To "Save" Her.

    Is That What Adam Possibly Understood As "Agape" Love ?

    So Can You Blame The Guy?

    Didnt God Plan on Dieing For His Creation Even Before It Was Made ?

    Didnt Jesus Voluntarily Go into Death To Save His Fathers Children?

    It Sounds Nieve to even say BUT God Wrote Those words about that mystery (Man Cleaving To Wife) before the fall had occurred, drawing attention to it.

    Star, Again naked is mentioned before the fall. I dont put too much into this other than to God getting your attention..Before not ashamed..after ashamed...

    Just Musing
    Me2 [​IMG]
     
  15. John the Revelator

    John the Revelator
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    Star,
    i'm feeling a bit like kenburton today.. lol,
    having said that. here is something: maybe God
    gave them clothes to cover their nakedness. and its symbolic. kind of like the burnt offerings that were offered to suffice for their sins until the atonement.

    John, feeling giddy
     
  16. Me2

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    Ground Control To Major John,

    Are You Asking If Ken Will Tell Us Who told Adam Was Naked ?

    hehe
    :D
    Me2
     
  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    When we see by Gods grace that Jesus Christ is "OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" then we are no longer naked are we!... Brother Glen :D

    [ June 28, 2002, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  18. Star

    Star
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    Exactly Me2! This is how I am seeing this. I might add in an inspired moment there was Adam (who is but a patern of Him to come) taking the fruit from "her" (His beloved's) hand...then the verse that says Adam who did not sin but Eve did makes sense from this vantage point.

    You put that beautifully Me2, your sharing always blesses me [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
  19. Star

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    i'm feeling a bit like kenburton today.. lol,

    lol don't flatter yourself John, I can understand alot of what Ken writes (minus the number stuff) lol! :D ;) (couldn't resist a bit of jest).

    Without a doubt I see that the coverings were symbolic, but I still don't get the burnt offering thing in connection to the coverings, although I'm not real familiar with the burnt offering stuff, its not my area of fascination so I wouldn't know anyway, Argh!

    Ya got me kiddo, I haven't the slightest clue :confused:

    In Him Kim [​IMG]
     
  20. Star

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    When we see by Gods grace that Jesus Christ is "OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" then we are no longer naked are we!... Brother Glen

    Brother Glen, without a doubt I agree, but I sometimes have those "irking questions" about the begining and the "whys" to alot of questions which might possibly invite a sermon. Technically those things can be given sterile answers which just don't satisfy the heart. I'm sure we've all had them and still do secretly as I myself do.

    Its that "heart to heart" "face to face" kind of inner pleading from the deepest recesses of the soul that needs to ask and desire to know the things pen and paper seems to evade.

    We know there are times when God gives us insight, refreshing times in His presense and a closeness beyond our comprehension, to describe the beauty of these times would take more then words because they fail. I sense only love, grace, beauty and pure goodness and I've known Him in both my studying and personal time alone with Him to show me grace in places where I saw none at all, thats the beauty in our fellowship with Him as He reveals Himself to us.

    So theres irks, questions, which desire us to ask seek and knock desiring that the door will open as we wrestle with questions on our hearts, they are our own questions without a doubt, so I can't think they would be of great importance to everyone, especially since everyone else is doing what I am too yet with their own questions on their hearts.

    But it is pretty amazing to meet another in Christ who has shared that itch beyond all itches to understand something in their heart with all truthfulness of understanding and come into their presence and be poured the heavenly drink that has welled up in them.

    Just putting my "feelers" out here and thank you for all your responses I appreciate the time you all took at the keyboard [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     

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